This was such fun interview! Thanks again to Brandon for coming on!
Here is part 2 of my interview with Brandon! This was a really fun interview for me, so I am excited to share it with everyone!
Brandon’s bio:
“Better questions reveal better truth.”
Founder and CEO of Words Have Impact, a content agency that creates thought leadership that humans love, and that AI remembers.
Also founder of Human Driven Understanding, a market research company that reveals how and why a company’s best clients buy so that they can replicate the journey and increase revenue.
Contact Brandon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandontowl/
Brandon’s plugs:
Brandon’s company: https://hdunderstanding.com/
Support local! The coffee shops mentioned:
https://www.livingroomstl.com/
https://www.telvastl.com/
https://kaldiscoffee.com/
https://www.antagonistcafe.com/ https://e61cafe.com/
https://www.northwestcoffee.com/
The Marketing Gateway is a weekly podcast hosted by Sean in St. Louis (Sean J. Jordan, President of https://www.researchplan.com/) and featuring guests from the St. Louis area and beyond.
Every week, Sean shares insights about the world of marketing and speaks to people who are working in various marketing roles – creative agencies, brand managers, MarCom professionals, PR pros, business owners, academics, entrepreneurs, researchers and more!
The goal of The Marketing Gateway is simple – we want to build a connection between all of our marketing mentors in the Midwest and learn from one another! And the best way to learn is to listen.
And the next best way is to share!
For more episodes:
https://www.youtube.com/@TheMarketingGateway
Copyright 2025, The Research & Planning Group, Inc.
TRANSCRIPT:
Well, let me ask you as well. Rigid thinking is another problem that we have in marketing and
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (34:05.899)
Yeah.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (34:15.414)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sean Jordan (34:25.412)
One of the things that many marketers struggle with is this kind of idea of like, we’re in this particular category or we offer this kind of service or we need to look like this other brand, right? And that’s exactly what we’re talking about there. So that could be really limiting though. So how can marketers break free of that sort of thinking? mean, beyond just asking, how can we do the opposite? Is there anything else they can do?
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (34:46.634)
Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. And I almost feel like we could do a whole nother podcast on that, right? And it’s kind of hard without having an actual example in front of you. So I’m going to try to see if I can speak to some generalities. But I find that sometimes the need to categorize things sometimes gets in the way a little bit.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve talked to marketing salespeople who defines their target market, for example, by industry and size, or industry size and persona within the company. And those sorts of things just carry so little information these days. And I can give you examples of that if you want.
But so, you know, maybe thinking beyond like, okay, what would I want to know about my best clients that do not fall into tidy categories like industry and size, right? What’s a more efficient way of grouping them, right, by pain points or something like that? So I think just resisting the temptation to label and tag everything, at least for second, hold off on that and say like, what’s really driving the business here, right?
I think the other thing is having a mindset of piloting and experimenting, right? There’s so much in creative that’s tied up with like, okay, we’ve got to make it right. And legal has got to be happy with it. CEO has got to happy with it. But the
Most successful brands are willing to experiment and try something outlandish and say we have this month budget and time, we’re gonna try it and see what happens. And they’ll fail at five things before they discover the magical sixth thing. Or sometimes they’ll fail at nine things before they find the magical 10th thing, right? So learn really well how to pilot an idea, whether it’s a marketing campaign or a product or a service.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (36:45.342)
and learn how to roll it out to maybe your five best customers or five new customers in a new market, right? Learn fast and reiterate, right? It’s not a move fast and break things. I to reiterate that. I think that term needs to die. But it’s a set aside something to just try around and play with stuff because again, sometimes our assumptions going in can be
either stale or unfounded, right? And so being willing to interact with the real world, so to speak, is often the best antidote for unearthing those assumptions and maybe getting rid of them.
Sean Jordan (37:30.388)
So I know in my own research, I have a large client who they’re in a very competitive market and they thought one of their competitors was the other big company in that market. And it turned out there’s a smaller one that’s up and coming that is actually the one that’s stealing their market share. And they’re the one that they actually need to worry about. We were able to identify that through research. And right as I…
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (37:48.142)
interesting.
Sean Jordan (37:53.643)
pointed that out to them. An announcement was made like a couple of days later that that competitor was, they’re opening a new facility right in your territory. So it was good. They were able to start thinking that way already because they were already thinking about how to respond to it before it happened. But this happens a lot because we tend to look at, we fixate on this kind of point of view of, know, this is our competitor. this is our market or, this is our customer. And sometimes we have to get a different point of view and that can, sometimes that can involve
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (38:00.76)
Yeah.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (38:07.81)
Yeah.
Sean Jordan (38:22.866)
hiring new people that have different perspectives, and that’s always helpful. But sometimes it can just involve looking at the data and seeing things a little bit differently. Can you think of any situations where you’ve ever been able to help any of your clients do that?
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (38:34.338)
Yeah, before I get to that too, there’s a couple of interesting stories that come up and it has to do with reconsidering one, who your competition is and two, who your allies are, your referral partners.
So the one on your competition is, I don’t know if you’re a coffee drinker not, but you’ll sometimes see a cute cafe called Coffee Cartel, right? Every once in a while, like that, right? It seems to be a name. The coffee industry actually tried a cartel model, you know, back in the day. And there’s some products that led themselves well to, so cartel is basically a bunch of,
of big players in industry get together and say, look, we’re going to work together to set prices. And it worked well for oil, obviously, it worked well for diamonds, and it failed for coffee. Much coffee growers got together, they tried to stabilize prices, and it just didn’t work. Why is that? Because coffee was one of those products where, yeah, there are a bunch of competitors that you can choose from.
But there were a lot of non-coffee alternatives too. So if the cartel got together and raised prices on coffee or cut supply, it wasn’t like people would be like, all right, we’ll pay for the coffee. What happened is they started drinking tea or cola or getting chicory, right? Or I guess these days mushroom coffee, right? And so what they saw is people bleed off of coffee onto other things. So if you asked, okay, who’s the competitor for like a Folgers, right? might say it’s Maxwell.
Sean Jordan (40:05.216)
you
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (40:15.042)
health or it’s Starbucks or whoever grinds, you know, Calde or something like that, right? That’d be true because there are other coffee grinders and processors and roasters, right? But really the competition isn’t just coffee as a small category, it’s also tea and other caffeinated beverages and energy drinks, right? Because that’s what consumers lean to when they can’t get coffee at the price that they want, right?
So sometimes you have to think much bigger about your competitive set, right? Than just, you know, who are the people doing the exact same thing that I do right now? The other story about thinking more widely has to do with referral partners. I always tell people like, hey, get some good referral partners and they can sort of turn on the taps for you. But you’ve got to think not in terms of like who’s an adjacent industry. You got to think about who’s talking to the same customers.
So this happened with, I was telling this to a guy who was a financial advisor, right? And I was like, who do you have for referral partners? He’s like, well, I’m in like into BNI. And so, you know, I have an estate planning attorney and a mortgage guy. And that’s very typical for a financial planner, right? That those are the people.
And I said, interesting, well, you need to go down to the luxury car dealerships on Big Ben there, know, the Mini and the Jaguar and stuff, and go and make friends with as many of the salespeople there as you can. He’s like, why would I talk to car dealers and car salesmen? I said, well, tell me, who’s your best target demographic?
And he said, well, it’s usually a guy, you know, middle age, 40 to 50, has a really good job paying high six figures, but has it really safe for retirement or their parents going into assisted living, they need to start really planning for the future. Right. Mike. OK, great. Now, with that target market, before they talk to you, what have they gotten done? It’s like, oh.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (42:13.378)
midlife crisis, they went and an expensive car. I’m like, bingo. So what you do is you go to those people who are talking to this target market before they come to someone like you. They bought the car and as they bring up the paperwork, they say, hey, why we’re financing this? Do you have a financial planner? You should talk to our friend, know, so and so. And so he hadn’t even thought that that was something but literally talking to the same sorts of people that he wanted to meet, right?
Sean Jordan (42:15.73)
you
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (42:41.966)
My wife is a print broker and so she buys and sells printing and we did an exercise and she discovered that a lot of her best clients are ones that do events on a regular basis, right? Because if you run an event very often you need to send out invitations and letters, you need to print booklets, you need to print banners, right? There’s a lot of printing needs around that. And so that made her realize, oh,
I don’t need to necessarily talk to businesses or nonprofits directly. I need to talk to the event planners and the event venues, right? And as people are coming and engaging them, they can say, do you have a good printing resource for those programs? Go to Cathy, right? So I think thinking a little wider about who your referral partners are and who your competition is really is helpful for figuring out where your business needs to go, right?
And sometimes that takes a little creativity. Sometimes it takes a little harder look at who your client list is and asking some questions. And sometimes it’s just talking to the clients directly, right? So.
Sean Jordan (43:50.769)
And it’s so true. And I love the phrase referral partners because so often, especially when you’re in a business to business kind of business like I am, we are sitting around waiting for the phone to ring and we know it’s a lot of our business comes in for referrals. We know that a lot of our business comes in through repeat business, but we’re kind of at the mercy of, you know, when do people need what we’re selling and having a partnership where you have something that is, is a little bit more passive where it’s not just, we’re waiting for them to have a need, but for them to
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (44:05.71)
Mm-hmm.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (44:10.935)
Right.
Sean Jordan (44:20.242)
see a need and to explain it to someone else just makes that a lot easier and a lot more fruitful. I think just taking the time to be creative and think about that is a wonderful strategy. So I’m so glad you brought it up.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (44:30.742)
Yeah. I mean, like for me, for example, I often say that another instance where, you know, my service is really good is when there’s misspent marketing. So I always try to talk to people who are fractional CFOs because they’re the ones going into business and saying, huh, your finances are a mess and you are way overspending on your marketing and getting nothing from it. You need to fix that, right?
They’re not gonna fix it. They’ve just identified that you’ve been bleeding money, right? But then that becomes a good referral partner for me because then they can say, you must have been marketing, you know, talk to Brandon, have him do his thing,
Sean Jordan (45:07.754)
Brandon’s our Michael Clayton. He’s a fixer. He can solve this problem for us.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (45:10.893)
Yeah, yeah, something like that. But likewise, too, I can reciprocate because sometimes, you know, I might go to a customer and find out that, it seems like you’re doing X, Y, and Z, right? But you really need a fractional CFO to make sure that you can fund your growth, you know, if you do all these recommendations. And here’s who I’d recommend, right? So I’m always on the lookout for those kinds of partnerships, right? Because when it’s mindset, we can all help each other grow here.
Sean Jordan (45:41.035)
Well, and if you come in with the guy who’s controlling the purse strings on board with you, then it makes it a lot easier to make recommendations because then it’s not just, they’ll never go for that. They’ll never pay for that. Well, no, actually that’s why I’m here. Well, speaking of marketing. So you, you and I are both a part of the American Marketing Association chapter here in St. Louis. And I know we both have a real passion for helping to connect marketers in our area. You have done a really fantastic job.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (45:50.38)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, right, right, exactly.
Sean Jordan (46:08.16)
in the AMA with the monthly coffee meetups. So speaking of coffee earlier, that’s something where we get together the first Thursday of the month and we have coffee and tell me a little bit about how those got started and how your role in them has kind of evolved and then some of things you’ve been doing to make those events more than just a meet and greet.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (46:12.685)
Yeah.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (46:27.148)
Yeah, yeah, so it’s interesting because I kind of stayed away from the AMA for a while. I’ll openly admit that. I’d spoken a couple times, I’d been to a few lunches, but it wasn’t anything I saw the need to get involved with. you know, we can…
Go have a beer sometime and go over the reasons for that. I got involved though because I knew one of the current co-presidents, Marissa Lather, and she asked like, we’re getting together and getting some volunteers for you. Would you come and check it out? And,
I just kind of heard the vision that her and Hannah were laying out. I’m like, OK, I know that she’s a good leader. I know that she’s really capable. It sounds like they have a good vision. I think this is the time to catch the rocket shipwites on the way up. So I think they’re doing a tremendous job with it. And if people are truly marketing curious, I think it’s something to check out.
And I love that, you know, one of the things that they said at the beginning of their tenure was like, look, not everybody can come out to a luncheon in the middle of the day. We’ve got to experiment with having different times a day, different price points, different activities, because not everybody’s going to come to everyone, but everybody will find something that they find value in. And so Coffee Club really came out of that and it came out of those two saying, like, let’s do this. Let’s have a morning networking thing before the workday starts.
And I told them, me in wherever. So they said, what? You run this. And so I was off to the races doing that. And so it’s really great because first Thursday of every month, as you know, we get together at a local coffee place. And I’ll give a shout out to those places because they’ve been truly fantastic to work with. We did Living Room in Maplewood. We did Telva in Webster Groves. We did Calde on Skinker near Wash U.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (48:33.646)
This coming January we’re doing E61 Cafe. They’ve all been great to work with and so if you like coffee and you want to support local, any one of those. And before that we also did antagonist cafe in Szilard and Northwest Coffee in the central west end. I didn’t organize those but still two great venues. So if you want to support local coffee I’ll just give them all a shout out right now.
Sean Jordan (48:49.438)
Yeah.
Sean Jordan (48:56.564)
Mm-hmm.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (49:01.128)
But to get back to your question, one of the other things that I realized is that because I also got put on the membership committee, and one of the first things I suggested we do, it’s like, well, okay, if we’re going to try to promote membership in the AMA, let’s do some research. Like, we’re marketers, we do marketing research. Let’s actually have some conversations with people who…
Sean Jordan (49:12.672)
you
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (49:28.04)
rightly should be members of AMA, but aren’t so far, right? And those were really good conversations that I and others had. And when we put together the information, a few things stuck out. One of the things that stuck out was that some of these people we conversed with had been a part of other professional associations, but some of them kind of devolved into just being social hour, like people would get together for happy hour, they have drinks or something, but
it really wasn’t something that was gonna move their career forward, right? And especially if you’re gonna have your boss say, pay for your membership, you’ve gotta convince them that, I’m actually learning something, I’m actually, there’s value that we get from membership, besides it just being a social club, right? So I was very cautious and intentional that I wanted the coffee club to not just be, a bunch of marketers get together over coffee and, you know.
shoot the breeze, right? I wanted it to be something where people would make connections and maybe learn something. But how do you do that with a very loosely formed networking thing? So I just started introducing some activities into the flow of what we did. So for example, at one coffee networking, I brought in a big poster board.
I don’t know if you remember this, but I brought in a big poster board and I gave everybody stacks of sticky notes. And I said, hey, I want you to write down on these sticky notes one thing you tried this year. Use this May sticky notes for as many things as you tried. And then you got to put on the poster board on the left, if it’s something you tried and it really worked out, you got an ROI. Put it on the right, if it’s something that was disappointing, that didn’t give you what you wanted. And then put it on bottom.
Sean Jordan (51:14.184)
And I put email marketing on that one, by the way, the one that was disappointing because it wasn’t working this year.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (51:17.996)
Yeah, well, here’s what’s really cool about the activity is that you it’s a crowdsource thing. You put that on and then you get to see what everybody else put on. And I’m surprised how many people put either email marketing or AI tools for email or inbox cleaners. Right. It just seems that like right now in St. Louis in marketing at the end of 2025, email is not doing it for folks. Right.
So remember that whole you need to zig when others zag, right? Everybody tried the email route and it’s just overly saturated, right? What’s working out more are live events and trade shows, right? And the things that people are trying very much trended toward new AI tools, right? And so that was great. It was a great activity because over the course of coffee, people are just putting sticky notes on this thing and…
by the end of it, you had a whole board that gave you kind of a snapshot of what people try this year and gave people inspiration for what to try for next year. And I’m like, okay, so you get that whole thing, right? I mean, imagine if I did a survey of this and I’d have 20 questions, like, did you try this? What happened? Did you try that? What happened? What else are you trying? It’d be boring and nobody would fill it out, right? But they’re there at a coffee shop, they’re chatting, they write it down on sticky put it on and you get the same result, right? But all for the cost of coffee and all in the mornings.
know, networking. And so that turned out to be a really kind of cool activity, I think. People could walk away and, you know, is it scientifically valid? No, but I bet you they got a few ideas of something that they wanted to explore in January, right? The other one that we just did was kind of fun. I really wanted to not only have people learn,
but feel more connection with their fellow marketers and feel support. So I brought a box. Matter of fact, I might have it here. I don’t, I don’t have it here. I thought I had it here. I had a little box labeled marketing confessions. And I had everybody write down on a note card what their marketing confession was. So what does that mean? So an example would be someone had confided in me a few weeks earlier.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (53:32.468)
I had to give a presentation on AEO to my team, but I’d only just heard the term myself. I had no idea what I was talking about. I BSed my way through it, right? That’s been fashion. And we all have them, like, you know, that client that checks on a big project on Monday and you’re like, yeah, it’s going swimmingly. It’ll be fine, but you don’t start it till Wednesday, right? Or, you know, I’ve been on the job market for way longer than I thought I would be. So everybody wrote a fashion down and honestly put it in the box.
shuffled up and I read them out loud. And what was amazing is everybody got to hear what everybody else was anxious about or what they did. And I think there was a little bit of like, yeah, it’s not just me. Like other people are in the same boat, right? Like there was a lot of worry and anxiety about the job market, right? There’s a lot of, my gosh, I can’t believe the leadership I have to work with. But I was allowed to actually say that out loud, right?
And then as the final to that, what I did is like, okay, you heard the confessions. Now we’re going to write some affirmations. What one thing can you tell the people that you just heard to help them get through 2026? That we stuck on the board and that became a very positive thing, right? Because now, hey, here’s what the entire marketing community in St. Louis is telling you that stick with it. Take your time to reflect. Yeah, the job market’s bad, but it will happen. Stay with it, right?
And so I think that was really good because that was an example of people in the profession really having a chance to support each other and give them a message of like, we understand where you’re at. We’ve all been there. You know, stay with it.
Sean Jordan (55:09.544)
I love it. think encouraging each other is just as important as acknowledging that, we’re all facing a lot of the same issues. And I missed that particular gathering. I wish I had been there, but man, I’m so glad that you guys did that. That’s just fantastic.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (55:16.247)
Yeah.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (55:21.974)
Yeah, yeah. And so that’s sort of one of my goals is that every time we do Coffee Club, we have a different activity like that. We’ll see how far my creative juices go and see when I begin to repeat. you know, I think that’s
Sean Jordan (55:37.012)
You may have to have a board one year where they put things up, what can we do at the next coffee club?
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (55:41.358)
Yeah, yeah, there we go. Crowdsource that as well, right? But I think that’s something that, you know, I think the temptation sometimes is you go to a networking event and yeah, that’s sort of a script you do. You got to be able to say what you do in a couple sentences, why it’s relevant, who you’re looking for. You ask the same questions. But after a while, it can become a little formulaic. It can become a little bit like, not really paying attention, right? The other person.
So, you know, my thought process is always how can we deepen the conversation, right? How can we make it so that people really feel like, and it’s funny, the number of times I liken marketing to dating, but there was a study that two researchers did and it was looking at intimacy and it was looking at taking strangers and having them go through a list of questions. The idea is you start with very superficial stuff and then each question gets a little bit
Sean Jordan (56:21.568)
Ha
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (56:37.552)
deeper and more personal, right? And it just kind of followed like, what did that do to the relationship versus people who got like random questions, right? And they were interested in how knowing about the other person correlated with actually like falling in love, right? And it was true that the deeper it went, the more vulnerable you were.
the more you felt a bond with a person and maybe, you know, even fell in love with them. And I’m not looking to make marketers fall in love with each other, but I do think we tend to think of these professional associations in totally mercenary terms. Like, I’m going to go, who can I meet? What kind of ROI will I get out of it? Does it justify my taking a few hours on my day? And I’m like, I get why we have to think that way. Like I said, if the boss is paying your membership, you got it. But…
people aren’t going to show up again and again unless they feel like there’s something deeper there. So I’m trying always asking how can we tap into that deeper thing, whatever it is, that je ne sais quoi. And I think if we do that, and I’ll say too, forgive me for rambling, but I was thinking about this the other day. There’s a stat I read that said that right now 70 % of CFOs don’t trust their CMOs.
Now think about that 70%, right? I tell people that stat and I get two reactions. One is, my gosh, that’s really high. 70 % don’t believe. The other reaction is like, yeah, okay, that makes sense. And sometimes I get both reactions from the same person right next to each other, right? 70 % is a thunderous, I mean, there’s a whole section of leadership that doesn’t believe that CMOs are gonna deliver and that the CMOs are being honest with them. That to me is unforgivable and I think
Sean Jordan (57:57.279)
Wow.
Sean Jordan (58:07.488)
Mm-hmm.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (58:24.962)
we’ve given ourselves kind of that black eye, right? We’re the ones who said for years and years like, go digital, you can track everything, blah, blah. And when we tracked everything and saw that there wasn’t an ROI, said, no, no, you can’t do that, it’s all branding, right? So we did things like that to ourselves, or we would say like, hey, here are the eight ways you could write an email subject line to trick somebody into opening it. People are like, are we really into the business of tricking people into opening an email to make number go up?
Sean Jordan (58:49.92)
you
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (58:54.858)
Is that what we do? That shouldn’t be what we do, right? So I get it, know, marketers are kind of seeing like the used car salesman in business, right? little bit. Matter of fact, nothing against the used car salesman, but everybody knows the stereotype I’m gesturing at, So with that kind of statistic, what are we going to do going into 2026? I think what we need to do is we need to rethink what marketing is doing. We need to really rethink how we approach it.
and we need to go in with integrity and with community. I want the end of the 2020s to be a period of time where my kids and grandkids can look back and say, that was the start of the next golden age of marketing, right? That was, you know, there’s the Mad Men period and then there was the 2020s where they brought humanness and humanness and integrity back to marketing.
It’s a big challenge, but I think that’s what we have ahead of us. And if we can do that, I think that’s going to make people, the professional hunt happier. I think that’s going to make companies who hire marketers a lot happier. And I think it’s going to allow us to leave a little bit of a legacy.
Sean Jordan (01:00:09.096)
Well said, well said. And what a great point to end on. And one of the things that I always do at the end of our interview is give our guests a chance to plug something. Anything you want to plug, here’s your chance. What would you like to plug?
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (01:00:21.698)
Ooh, well, I replugged all the great local coffee places around here. So I’ll do it again, remind people that check out Living Room Maplewood, Telva and Webster Groves, Caldianne Skanker, Antagonist Cafe in Soulard, E61, Overoff Union, and Northwest Coffee House. Check them out. I know you all have laptops and like to drink coffee and get the work done. So check out one of those places, definitely. So I’ll just repeat that.
Supporting local is just good generally, but that’s a way to do it In terms of other things that I would like to plug I’ll just plug my my own company real briefly human driven understanding You know, you said master of questions, right? That’s kind of why I feel I’ve become So if you have a company that you feel you’ve gotten kind of stuck
that you’re kind of shoveling a lot of dollars into your marketing budget and haven’t seen the outcomes that you want. Let’s just talk. It might just be a few ideas we generate for you. Maybe you need this process where I talk to your best clients for you. And I would especially like now, it’s the beginning of the year, right? Now is the time to get clear on this stuff so that you can plan appropriately for the rest of the year and.
Hopefully make 2026 the year that you pivot and become even more successful.
Sean Jordan (01:01:47.327)
I think we can all use a great 2026. So thank you so much for. Yeah, well, thank you for being on the Marketing Gateway, Brandon. It’s been a great conversation. I’ve really enjoyed talking with you. And thanks so much for being a marketing mentor to our community as well. And we’ll look forward to seeing you some of those AMA events and hopefully having some coffee with you.
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (01:01:49.964)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Indeed, right?
brandontowl-cifryh8kn (01:02:05.282)
Yeah, yeah, and if anybody wants to come up to that event, you know, can look me up or look up the AMA. I’ll probably be at most of them. So you can come, anyone who’s listening to this can come talk to me anytime. And I just want to say, Sean, I also had a huge amount of fun doing this. I’m so glad that you’re doing this and I hope it reaches a lot of people and gives them some food for thought. So keep on keeping on.
Sean Jordan (01:02:28.705) Thanks so much!
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