We hope you’ll rate us 5 stars because you want to, not because we sent you exotic butters.
Have you ever noticed a product that has pretty good reviews, but when you get it, it end up not working out? Let’s talk about why that may happen in today’s episode!
This month I am plugging Ranken Jordan Pediatric Hospital. To donate, please visit https://rankenjordanfoundation.org/donate/
And here we go with part 2 of my chat with Steve Turner! Honestly, I learned so much in this interview and I’m so glad that we were able to have Steve on as a guest!
About Steve:
Steve Turner is the author of PR THAT WORKS-Real Strategies. Real Campaigns. Real Results and is the co-owner and principal of Solomon Turner PR in Chesterfield (St. Louis) MO. A firm he and his partner, Shelly Solomon, founded in 1990. An award-winning agency, Solomon Turner has been named one of the top PR firms in St. Louis for 17 consecutive years by Small Business Monthly. Mr. Turner has helped corporations, organizations and nonprofits build their brands and reach their marketing objectives for over three decades. Mr. Turner has worked with such brands as Anthony (Tony) Robbins Seminars, Brian Tracy, Coldwell Banker, Northwestern Mutual, and SSM Healthcare. A frequent media contributor, he has been quoted and/or featured in the Associated Press, Forbes, Everything PR, Industry Leaders, Parade, PR Week, Small Business Monthly, and The Wall Street Journal. He was named a Rockstar Publicist by Authority/Medium magazine and has appeared on TV, radio and podcasts. Steve has spoken to several business groups and organizations on public relations and marketing and is a highly-regarded speaker. His blog, PR THAT WORKS, has generated over 60,000 views and continues to grow. He also founded The PR Channel on YouTube to serve as an education tool for young PR professionals, business owners and students. Steve is a graduate of the University of Missouri-Columbia, where he received a Bachelor of Journalism degree. He has written hundreds of columns for blogs, PR journals, and books. His book, PR THAT WORKS, is available in paperback and kindle format on Amazon and other booksellers. For more visit https://solomonturner.com or https://getprthatworks.com.
Today is part one of my interview with an expert in PR, Steve Turner! Tune in tomorrow for part 2!
About Steve:
Steve Turner Bio Steve Turner is the author of PR THAT WORKS-Real Strategies. Real Campaigns. Real Results and is the co-owner and principal of Solomon Turner PR in Chesterfield (St. Louis) MO. A firm he and his partner, Shelly Solomon, founded in 1990. An award-winning agency, Solomon Turner has been named one of the top PR firms in St. Louis for 17 consecutive years by Small Business Monthly. Mr. Turner has helped corporations, organizations and nonprofits build their brands and reach their marketing objectives for over three decades. Mr. Turner has worked with such brands as Anthony (Tony) Robbins Seminars, Brian Tracy, Coldwell Banker, Northwestern Mutual, and SSM Healthcare. A frequent media contributor, he has been quoted and/or featured in the Associated Press, Forbes, Everything PR, Industry Leaders, Parade, PR Week, Small Business Monthly, and The Wall Street Journal. He was named a Rockstar Publicist by Authority/Medium magazine and has appeared on TV, radio and podcasts. Steve has spoken to several business groups and organizations on public relations and marketing and is a highly-regarded speaker. His blog, PR THAT WORKS, has generated over 60,000 views and continues to grow. He also founded The PR Channel on YouTube to serve as an education tool for young PR professionals, business owners and students. Steve is a graduate of the University of Missouri-Columbia, where he received a Bachelor of Journalism degree. He has written hundreds of columns for blogs, PR journals, and books. His book, PR THAT WORKS, is available in paperback and kindle format on Amazon and other booksellers. For more visit https://solomonturner.com or https://getprthatworks.com.
Very excited for Tom to come back to talk about his book!
How does military experience translate to marketing? Find out that, and more, in today’s episode with Tom Harness!
About Tom: Tom Harness is a digital marketing educator, consultant, and entrepreneur based in the Midwest. He serves as an Assistant Lecturer in the College of Business & Analytics at Southern Illinois University Carbondale, where he teaches digital marketing, branding, and emerging marketing technologies. Tom is also the owner of Harness Digital Marketing, working with small businesses, nonprofits, and veteran-owned organizations. A U.S. Army Signal Corps veteran, Tom brings a mission-focused, disciplined approach to marketing strategy shaped by wearing multiple hats—student, educator, business owner, and community volunteer for veterans. He is currently writing a book that explores leadership, identity, and resilience through lived experience, drawing from his time in military service, entrepreneurship, education, and community involvement. His work centers on helping people communicate clearly, think strategically, and build with purpose.
I’m sure you’ve heard plenty of people argue against AI, but what about an argument for it?
Today we are talking to Holly Smith!
About Holly:
Holly L. Smith, MBA Holly L. Smith is a freelance marketing and communications consultant with more than 25 years of experience leading strategy, storytelling, and brand growth across higher education and healthcare. Her career reflects a rare blend of creative vision, analytical rigor, and a deep commitment to mission-driven work. Holly began her academic journey in athletic training at Indiana University before earning a bachelor’s degree in marketing from the University of Southern Indiana and an MBA from the University of Evansville. Her professional experience spans both in-house leadership and agency environments, giving her a well-rounded perspective on marketing strategy, operations, and execution. Throughout her career, Holly has held senior marketing roles at respected organizations including Cincinnati Children’s, St. Elizabeth Healthcare, Ascension St. Vincent, Heritage Federal Credit Union, and the University of Evansville. She also spent several years at Ten Adams, a boutique agency specializing in healthcare marketing and strategy, before serving as Director of Marketing, Strategic Planning, and Printing Services at St. Mary’s Health System. Most recently, she served as Senior Director of Marketing and Communications at the University of Evansville, where she led institutional branding, communications, and enrollment support initiatives. Currently, Holly owns and operates Hollylocks Marketing, where she provides strategic marketing and communications consulting to mission-driven organizations. She also works part-time with Community-Engaged Alliance, supporting community-engaged teaching, learning, and research across Indiana. In addition, Holly serves as a Fractional CMO, Project Manager, and Web Coordinator at Caylor Solutions, partnering with higher education clients on integrated marketing strategy, digital initiatives, and project execution. In addition to her professional roles, Holly has been an adjunct professor of marketing at the University of Evansville since 2016, sharing her real-world expertise with emerging professionals. In recognition of her leadership and service, she received the University’s President’s Distinguished Service Award in 2021. Holly is equally known for her deep community involvement and nonprofit leadership. She has served on numerous boards, including as Marketing Chair and Board Member for A Network of Evansville Women (ANEW); in advisory, grants, and leadership roles with the Women’s Fund of Vanderburgh County; as Board Chair and Marketing Chair for Building Blocks; as Marketing Chair for the Children’s Museum of Evansville; and as a member of the Advisory Committee at the Southern Indiana Career and Technical Center for the WPSR program. She previously served with the Evansville Police Foundation as a Board Member and Marketing Chair, Co-Chair of the Policeman’s Ball, and Interim Executive Director. Across every role, Holly is known for her strategic insight, collaborative leadership style, and passion for using marketing as a force for connection, growth, and community impact.
I know we say this a lot, but what a great interview!
Today we are talking with Betty Mertens! From building a mutual understanding for a team, to having personal insight to the work she does, this is a truly insightful interview!
About Betty: Betty is the Director of Client Success at UPBrand, where she works with leadership teams and brands that find themselves on the edge of the unknown. Known for her relentlessly positive outlook and calm presence in complexity, Betty helps align teams, sharpen stories, and build brands that connect more meaningfully with the people they serve. Outside of her work at UPBrand, Betty is the Founder and President of Ella’s Umbrella, a nonprofit dedicated to keeping kids’ hearts beating, and the author of multiple books on grief and resilience. A personal trainer, passionate gardener, and advocate for living fully in every season of life, she brings the same intention and heart to her personal life that she brings to her professional work. Betty lives in St. Peters with her husband Kyle and their two children, Ryder and Layne, and honors the legacy of her daughter Ella through her writing and nonprofit work.
The Marketing Gateway is a weekly podcast hosted by Sean in St. Louis (Sean J. Jordan, President of https://www.researchplan.com/) and featuring guests from the St. Louis area and beyond.
Every week, Sean shares insights about the world of marketing and speaks to people who are working in various marketing roles – creative agencies, brand managers, MarCom professionals, PR pros, business owners, academics, entrepreneurs, researchers and more!
The goal of The Marketing Gateway is simple – we want to build a connection between all of our marketing mentors in the Midwest and learn from one another! And the best way to learn is to listen.
Copyright 2025, The Research & Planning Group, Inc.
TRANSCRIPT:
Sean Jordan (00:08)
Welcome back to the Marketing Gateway. I’m Sean in St. Louis. And boy, have we got a good one for you today. We’re going to be talking to Betty Mertens from Upbrand. She is the director of client success there. And Upbrand, when they talk about client success, what they’re talking about is helping these brands or these organizations that have come to this kind of inflection point where they don’t really know why things aren’t going the way that they used to be going and trying to figure out
How do they pivot? How do they adjust? How do they make sure that their approach is meeting the needs of the market today? And they’re so good at it. You’re going to get to hear it all in this interview. But beyond all of the cool things she does, they are helping to align teams and sharpen stories and build brands that connect more meaningfully with people. That’s all cool. But she also has this other side gig. And the side gig is that she and her husband co-founded this not-for-profit organization called Ella’s Umbrella.
And she’s going to tell you this story. I’m just going to warn you that, ⁓ like many of these things, it comes from a little bit of personal tragedy. But so many positive things have come as a result of that personal tragedy that, again, it’s hard for me when I hear stories like this not to tear up a little bit because, gosh, I can only imagine losing a small child, as Betty’s going to talk about. But what they’ve been able to do to honor the legacy of her daughter is just so amazing.
I’m so happy to share this all with you. So here you go. Enjoy.
Sean Jordan (01:38)
Well, hello, welcome back to the Marketing Gateway. I’m Sean in St. Louis, and with me today from Upbrand is Betty Mertens. And Betty, so excited to have you on.
Betty Mertens (01:47)
I’m really honored to be on, so.
Sean Jordan (01:50)
Well, likewise, honored to have you on. And we always begin the show where I ask guests to tell me something surprising that I don’t know. So what would you like to share?
Betty Mertens (02:00)
⁓ Let me share that when I was in college, I was in a steel drum ensemble. Well known fact. What about you? Anything surprising about you?
Sean Jordan (02:06)
Whoa, how did you get into that?
I was a drummer growing up. I never got to play a steel drum. How in the world did you decide you wanted to play a steel drum?
Betty Mertens (02:19)
Well, I have always been a percussionist and in high school I played pitch percussion. I played marimba with four mallets. And then when I got into college, I was at the University of Minnesota and they had a steel drum ensemble. And I was like, that sounds like something that I want to do. So I joined and it was really fun. mean, it’s not something that I have kept on after college because there’s not a lot of occasions to whip out a steel drum, but it’s…
It’s a fun fact that not a lot of people would guess.
Sean Jordan (02:51)
If you’re having like Jamaica night or something. ⁓
Betty Mertens (02:53)
That’s
right. Yeah. You just go pull out the old steel drum.
Sean Jordan (02:58)
That’s
tremendous. I grew up doing band and I was a percussionist myself and I wound up in the marching band at O’Fallon, Illinois where I grew up and got to do that. And then I went to college at the University of Illinois and I was going, I was trying out for the drum line there. I made it all the way to the final cut and then I had a spot but then the guy whose spot I was taking decided he was going to grad school and he got his spot back and I lost it.
I went to college not knowing what to do, now that I didn’t have a marching band in my life, and fortunately found other things to do.
Betty Mertens (03:29)
Yeah, yeah. And now look at you here. You’re asking people questions and living the dream.
Sean Jordan (03:35)
That’s always, know, percussion teaches you all about how to time things and to make sure that you’re just asking those questions at the right time. ⁓
Betty Mertens (03:42)
That’s
right. My fun fact could have been that I was the drum major of the marching band in my high school. Yeah.
Sean Jordan (03:47)
fantastic. So you
had the whole marching band experience too. Did you guys get to go anywhere fun?
Betty Mertens (03:50)
That’s
We did. Actually, my senior year, gosh, this is really getting off the rails, but we went to on the way to a competition, our bus tire caught on fire and caught the bus on fire and it burned down with all of our instruments on it. My senior year. So anyway, we came back. ⁓ went to high school at Secman Senior High and the local music.
Sean Jordan (04:09)
Wow.
Betty Mertens (04:18)
company, instrument company, Noddleman’s, ⁓ donated instruments to the whole marching band because we had to wait for insurance claims to pay out. But they donated and we were able to get back on buses and make it to the competition still and we won. So, it was kind of fun story.
Sean Jordan (04:31)
Wow.
That’s amazing. ⁓
I can’t even imagine. mean, the stress going into those competitions was pretty high. Wow.
Betty Mertens (04:41)
Yeah, yeah,
it was stressful. then when you ⁓ I’ll never forget being on the bus when it when the flame started licking up over the window at first when the bus tire popped, we were all joking like, ⁓ great. Now we broke the bus. But then the window started melting. And we were like, Whoa, actually chaos. We all like crammed into the middle and we’re jumping out. And so I think by the time we finally got to the competition, it was like
We’re very calm, cool, and collected. Like, this is not the craziest thing that’s happened to us. Like, resets your bar for stress.
Sean Jordan (05:16)
That’s amazing. ⁓ hey, we got the St. Louis question out of the way too. We know where we went to high school now. yes. Well, so in this series on the marketing gateway, speaking of St. Louis, we really focused on the St. Louis area. And I just wanted to know, how did you come to live and work in the St. Louis area?
Betty Mertens (05:22)
Yeah, that’s right. That’s very important for all of your viewers and listeners, I’m sure.
Well, as you know from my backstory, I grew up here. But then I moved away, went to Minnesota for college and for grad school, and then a job opportunity brought me back. And then I met my husband and then we put down roots here.
Sean Jordan (05:52)
That’s funny. I always said I was never going to stay in St. Louis and ⁓ I wound up living 15 minutes from where I grew up. that’s how it goes. I went to the University of Illinois, which is up in Champaign-Urbana and met my wife there. And then I wound up taking a job back here and here I am. And we’re happy here. So it worked out. Well, what’s something about the St. Louis area that you wish other people knew?
Betty Mertens (05:58)
Did you ever go away or you were here? ⁓
But that’s how it
Hmm, I mean, there’s so many great things about St. Louis. I think I just love the potential of this city. I think we have a really neat history ⁓ and there’s so many fun things to do. I have two young kids, so we love going to the Magic House. We love going to the zoo. We love just all the neat, you know, the history museum. There’s so many cool things and local theater organizations. I’m totally a theater kid, so.
stages and the Fox and the Muny and all of those things. It’s like such a neat little community. ⁓ And I think we’ve got a lot of local gems like Lion’s Choice. People don’t know that that is something that you can’t have outside of St. Louis. And I love some of the actual like olive and oak like finer dining. just, I love it. So I think everybody should come here.
Sean Jordan (07:08)
Fantastic.
That’s fantastic. Well, Lion’s Choice, before I became vegetarian, I’m vegetarian now, but that was one of my favorite places to take people whenever they come to town and be like, you got to try this place. They have really great roast beef. ⁓
Betty Mertens (07:20)
I know.
I think it’s so prolific here that people don’t realize that it’s like a regional thing. so they leave and then Lion’s Choice is the biggest day of the year is when people come back for Thanksgiving. Everyone’s like, I got to get a roast beef sandwich because I didn’t realize I couldn’t get it out outside of St. Louis. So.
Sean Jordan (07:37)
That’s fantastic.
Well, thanks for sharing all of those things. let me ask you now, so you work with a lot of companies that are at what you call inflection points, right? So what usually brings a leadership team to the edge of this point where you realize something has to change?
Betty Mertens (07:55)
Yeah, so I think, I mean, sometimes there’s a big shift, like a big product launch or an important milestone anniversary or something, but most often it’s not so big and splashy. It’s like a quiet, accumulating discomfort. know, markets have kind of shifted and technology has changed. And so there’s a lot of brands that are coming to us because they realize that
their core consumer is aging, and now they need to do something different. They need to reach a younger audience. So even though on paper, things today might look okay, like their product is still really great. It’s not like their customers are revolting, but they’ve reached a point where they realized, hey, what’s gotten us to where we’re at now is not gonna set us up for success in the future. And so once they start realizing that, then they realize like, man, we…
We need to do something, something has to change. And that is typically the inflection point.
Sean Jordan (08:58)
Interesting. So what kind of indicators do you normally have that makes that infliction point obvious? Is it just sales declining, or are there other things that you notice?
Betty Mertens (09:08)
Yeah, I think it’s a lot of things that are happening internally with folks. And sometimes it’s just this, you know, like it’s getting harder to make decisions because there’s a lack of clarity. And I think that companies, a lot of times will, ⁓ you know, they’re they are not they’re meeting some of their goals, but they’re not exceeding goals.
or the things that they were having a lot of success in before are not quite delivering like they used to. And it’s almost like there is a deflation that occurs even just in how people themselves are talking about who they are and what they do. And it’s really that they’ve kind of outgrown the brand story that they’ve been telling.
Sean Jordan (10:00)
That’s really interesting. there are brand stories that are really resonant for decades that suddenly just become, people don’t remember that history anymore. They don’t remember that brand. We’ve seen that happen with In-House or Bush here in St. Louis, where now that it’s owned by InBev and it doesn’t have the same ties to St. Louis that it used to have, people don’t think about it the same way they used to. ⁓ there are other brands like that too that’s happened with. And so when you have an organization that’s
Betty Mertens (10:20)
Yeah
Sean Jordan (10:25)
feeling like stuck or misaligned or overwhelmed, what’s the first thing you try to uncover about their brand?
Betty Mertens (10:32)
Yeah. So what we’re trying to uncover is actually what they believe they’re here to do and not just what they’re communicating to the world. So almost every leadership team is going to have a very deep sense of pride in the work that they’re doing. Any discovery session we have, they’re going to talk about how much they care about their customers. They care about the quality of their product or their service, and they care about the impact that they have.
But if you were to ask five different people on the leadership team to explain what their company is doing that really matters, they’re often gonna give you five very different answers. And so the thing that we are solving for is that gap. That is the source of why people are feeling kind of stuck. ⁓ So what we’re looking for, it’s not really like a problem with the logo or a messaging problem.
the meaning behind the message? Do they really have a shared understanding of what promise they’re making to the people that they serve? And can they say it in a way that feels authentic and human and emotional and true? Because until that’s clear, everything else, marketing, sales, culture, their business strategy, it’s all harder than it needs to be. Does that make sense?
Sean Jordan (11:59)
Absolutely. I was just thinking about, so I’m a researcher, do ⁓ research for clients, and I had a experience just like what you’re talking about recently where ⁓ I went to, it was a mid-sized company, they’re in the financial sector, and they asked us to do some surveys with their customers who are out in nursing homes and things like that. And I did discovery interviews with every one of their team because I didn’t really know what their business was.
and nobody could really articulate to me what their business was. And as we talked, every single person told me a completely different story. so even when I sent them the report, ⁓ the person I sent it to had a really different impression of what the results meant than everybody else on the team because they weren’t aligned on that central mission. And the funny thing is they’re a successful company. They do a really good job. I thought they were a really impressive group, but they lacked that alignment. And I think that helped them to bring that together a little bit. So I’ve seen it.
Betty Mertens (12:53)
Yeah, because
the things they’re doing are good things. I’m sure every person that answered your question, you were like, that’s really great. But if they’re not singing from the same songbook, then it’s really hard to have that alignment in how you’re showing up in the market.
Sean Jordan (13:01)
For sure.
And I think that part of ⁓ where that comes from a lot of times is people come in at different generations of a company or maybe at different eras. So, you know, if you’re working with a group that went from being an entrepreneurial business into a regional or mid-sized business, a lot of times the entrepreneurial side has a really different view than the people that came in later. Or if you have a ⁓ group where the sales team is really important and the sales team has its own narrative and the internal team has their own narrative.
Those conflict sometimes, and you run into that. And some of the companies that you deal with at Uprand involve probably franchisee relationships too, right?
Betty Mertens (13:39)
Totally. Yes.
Yep, exactly. And that’s a totally different lens. And sometimes I think part of the value that we can add when we come in and we’re doing discovery is to have that lens of objectivity, right? Because everyone has their own goals, their own preconceived notions about what is most important. And sometimes those things aren’t even really grounded in data. It’s just grounded in how they feel. And so having a person come in and kind of
reflect back so that they can see where there are tensions or where there’s misalignment. That’s really helpful in crafting a strategy where everyone can move forward together.
Sean Jordan (14:30)
So sometimes when a marketing agency is called in, ⁓ it’s because there is a need to do exactly what you’re saying. But everybody kind of is like, they’re just going to change our slogan, or they’re just going to change our logo, or these really superficial things. ⁓ When you’re working with these organizations, how do you get them to see past that? That you’re not just doing a slap of new paint on an old business, but you’re really doing something that’s transformative.
Betty Mertens (14:58)
Well, and what you’re saying is so right that it is transformative. I think…
and out that value. Pretty much any leadership team that we’re working with is already coming to us with the understanding that they need a little bit of help, even if they’re not able to articulate why. And as we start asking the questions and explaining to them why a framework is so important, a brand framework, which encompasses
on one side of it, all of your business functions, right? So this is, you your purpose, your vision, your mission, your core values. A lot of companies have those and they’re already articulated in business documents. But then thinking of those, and sometimes we need to give those a fresh look, and looking at the other half, which is how you are talking about yourself to the market.
Those are the things and they’ll come to us sometimes saying we need, we need that side, the marketing side, because we’ve got this other side on lock. And then we start talking through and asking questions and realizing like, actually, we need to brush up those things that we thought we had on lock because they’re no longer true or they’ve taken a different. ⁓ They’ve taken us to a different place and where we are today is different and we need to look at that.
And so when we’re working with them on it, then we can start showing them like, hey guys, here’s where it gets fun. Now that we’ve got a holistic brand framework that works together and your marketing strategy is supporting your underlying business purposes. Now, when you’ve got a new opportunity and you need to decide whether or not it’s worth going after, you have a lens that you can figure out, hey, man, is this delivering on our core values?
What is this aligning to? And if not, then it’s like a real practical way to send some stuff to the cutting room floor. And once people start engaging with that, priorities sharpen, your messaging is becoming more consistent, your teams stop debating on tactics, and they start aligning around that deeper meeting. And the deepest shift is really cultural. It makes people feel calmer, more confident.
more unified. It creates almost this like sense of gravity because everybody has a mutual understanding of what they’re doing and what the work is about. Does that make sense?
Sean Jordan (17:32)
It does. I love that analogy used at the end there, a sense of gravity pulling people together in a way that they understand that they’re part of something bigger than themselves. Because gravity comes from enormous objects, right? I mean, so that’s a really great analogy. Well, why do so many brands struggle to explain why they matter, especially when they’re doing that objectively good work?
Betty Mertens (17:40)
Mm-hmm.
Well, there’s a lot of people out there doing good work. And what that does is it creates so much noise. so brands are taught to explain what they do and not why it matters. So what ends up happening is they lead with features or credentials or their processes or they give proof points or, I mean, all of that makes sense, but none of that gets to like the deeper emotional connection of why should I care?
Sean Jordan (17:57)
Ha ha ha ha!
Betty Mertens (18:25)
So when you’re inside a business, the meaning feels obvious, right? You see the impact. You’re getting a front row seat to how hard your team works and how much value you’re delivering. But that emotional context doesn’t automatically transfer to the outside world. So then when you add all the noise that I was talking about, like crowded markets and shrinking attention spans, and there’s so much AI generated content, suddenly being good is not enough to make you memorable.
So then brands kind of end up sounding generic, not because they are generic. I mean, they’re differentiated, they’re trying to translate deep meaning into really shallow language. And that doesn’t work.
Sean Jordan (19:12)
I’ve had this experience so many times at conferences that I go to where there are people that are from large companies and they just presume that you know everything about their company and you’ve never heard of them. They’re big enough to be big, but they’re not big enough to really make an impact where everybody knows of them. And when you ask them to kind of explain what they do, they give you a paragraph. can’t give you just a simple explanation of what it is that they’re actually trying to accomplish in the world. And I think that that points to a lot of times
marketing again, just kind of being seen as this activity that we do that maybe helps sales, but not part of our core strategy, not part of our core identity, our core values. And when you can align those things, and it’s often necessary the larger you get, because you have so many people that you need to bring together, then it’s easier for them to say, ⁓ here’s how we help our customers. And they can tell you in a sentence. ⁓
Betty Mertens (20:03)
Exactly. And also it’s so helpful, not just for communicating the value of the company, but also for hiring, right? Like you want to bring people on board that are in alignment with your core values and how you want to show up in the world because they are a representation of your brand. And so when you have this shared language, this shared meaning, you use it as a filter for everything.
Sean Jordan (20:28)
It’s so true. Well, what changes when a company finally has that shared strategic framework that everybody can rally around?
Betty Mertens (20:36)
Gosh, I think talking about this internal gravity, like that is, that’s the thing that changes. And maybe I think the best way I can explain this is, ⁓ I, in my free time, ⁓ my husband and I launched a nonprofit because we had a daughter who had a heart issue that we didn’t know about. And right after her first birthday, she passed away very suddenly. And,
It rocked our world and we needed something really positive to do with our grief. And also, we had no idea how common that was, that kids pass away from heart issues. It’s like one of the most common reasons related to birth, that kids die in the US. So Kyle and I were like, man, something has to be done about this. And so we’re gonna do it because that is gonna keep us from falling apart. We have a positive way to channel our energy. So we put this thing together, not really planning to
build it into a nonprofit, just like needing a positive outlet. And then over the years, we just kept getting momentum. People kept coming along and we kept realizing like, wow, there are more things we can do with this. So what started as we’re just gonna fund some heart research, started building into something like, well, now we’re also gonna fund technology advancements. And now we’re gonna help people who are grieving and now we’re gonna do all these amazing things in our daughter’s legacy. Well, then we launched a nonprofit.
And people would ask us, cool, what’s your nonprofit do? And I would try to say all of those words that I just vomited out, you know, like trying to tell the whole story and explain it. And the problem is people check out. Like, so even though the story is great and there’s a lot of passion there, attention spans are so short that I needed, my husband and I needed to find a clearer way to communicate and get our board on the same page with us.
because they needed to be able to tell the story in as compelling of a way as Kyle and I could tell it when we’re the ones who founded it. So this is something that I was talking to Mackenzie at Upbrand and saying like, man, I do this for a living. I should be able to create marketing, a message for my own nonprofit. ⁓ But I’m really struggling. And she said, actually, that’s what you’re describing right there. It’s not a…
that you don’t have the ability to think like that, it’s that you’re so close to it. And so what I am finding is that we often…
We often serve best as an objective third party as we come in because the people who are most passionate about the mission of the companies and they’re trying to explain what they do, they’re too close to it. so McKenzie actually helped me and the up brand team rewrite my brand platform for my nonprofit. And what that did, what that shifted for us, that gravity that I’m trying to to you about is that now
Sean Jordan (23:42)
Yeah.
Betty Mertens (23:44)
When I am invited and I have a couple seconds to give an elevator pitch, I now have words that I can wrap around what we do. So our tagline is brighter futures for hard kids. That is the way that we help people remember what we are all about. And our vision is a safer world for kids with congenital heart defects. So when people ask me,
What is it that your nonprofit does? I say to them, we keep kids’ beating. That’s what we do. Any board member can say that with confidence. We make the world a safer place for kids with heart issues. so just having those sound bites, having those things, and then when we have opportunities that come up, we can look at them and say, okay, are these gonna align with the core values that we’ve outlined?
Are these supporting our brand attributes that are laddering up to our brand promise, which is a supportive space to turn heartbreak into action. That is exactly what started out our story and that is what we wanna do for other people. We wanna create that space. And so we can vet every opportunity through that lens and it creates the sense of calm and direction.
So, and that’s what we want brands around St. Louis to have, that same sense of like groundedness and centeredness. Is that all?
Sean Jordan (25:15)
That’s fantastic.
Yeah. you know, I was just thinking that so often the core of good marketing communication is the phrase, tell me more. So you need to be able to say something in a way that gets people’s attention so that they want to hear more. You’re not forcing it on them. They’re interested in it. And having a great sentence like, we keep kids’ hearts beating. Well, tell me more. I want to know more about that because that’s something that sounds incredible. I think it really points to the value of really well-structured marketing communication.
Betty Mertens (25:47)
Absolutely.
Sean Jordan (25:48)
All right, so Betty, if a founder or a CMO listening today feels like their brand has lost its clarity or its edge, what’s one reflection question that you think they ought to ask themselves?
Betty Mertens (26:00)
That is an excellent question. think I would ask them, if I were hearing about our company for the first time today, would I feel something or would I just understand something? Because I feel like that is the important distinction. Understanding alone doesn’t drive behavior. Feeling is what drives behavior.
So if your brand story is only helping people kind of nod politely and not really lean in emotionally, it’s a good way to identify if you have a meaning problem. So I think that one question could really open the door to a much bigger and more honest conversation about what your brand actually stands for.
Sean Jordan (26:56)
I love it. Well, you know, in talking about all this, we’re talking about strategy, we’re talking about implementation. ⁓ Walk me through a little bit, because I have a feeling, being a researcher, having talked to a lot of people, ⁓ that it’s hard sometimes to get them to be, to drop their guard enough that they’re not defensive when they’re talking about these things, because these are deeply held beliefs, right? These are things that they really believe and that they really cherish. And a lot of times folks are not so open to being challenged on those things because they want to articulate what
is really driving them. And you have to challenge them a little bit in order to get them to think differently. So walk me through a little bit of how the process of what you guys do at Upbrand works and how you’re able to get past those barriers.
Betty Mertens (27:39)
So implementing it really requires ⁓ almost like a scientific approach, right? Because at our base level, we’re understanding psychology that’s driving human behavior. So what we will do a lot of times, we ask a lot of questions like you as a researcher, and then we build out like using Maslow’s hierarchy of needs almost.
And so what we, what we’ll do is start driving at ⁓ features or attributes that a company would say sets them apart. And once we get alignment on those, then we ask the deeper question of, okay, now why does that matter? And then that ladders up to functional benefits. So we start thinking of like, what are the functional benefits of whatever product or service they’re offering? And then after we get those clarified, then we say, okay, now why does that
And then that ladders up to those emotional benefits, like what people are feeling, relaxed, trusting, comforted. And then once we think about that, we ask again, well, why does that matter? And then that ladders up to the higher order intangible benefits that your audience is going to take away. And then from that, that’s where you really start getting into the very tippy top of that pyramid, which is your brand promise. So it is a benefit.
oriented expression that only your brand can claim. And once you get to that point, mean, man, it should give you goosebumps. And you should be able to look all the way back down to the features and the attributes that you started with. And everything should ladder up to that one promise. So maybe an example of that would be like Airbnb. Their brand promise is belong anywhere. Everything about their brand.
ladders up to that. And every interaction that people have with that brand is a chance that they have to either keep that promise and build more trust or they can break it. So that’s why we intentionally call it a brand promise because it is something that is, it’s not like a set it and forget it thing. It’s something that you have to continually deliver on so that you can build over trust over time.
Sean Jordan (29:56)
I’ve had an experience very similar to what you’re talking about with a company that I worked for. They serve a competitive space where people buy products to be better at competing. And they had done a laddering exercise and they got all the way up to, well, it feels good to win. And that was an internal exercise they’d done. They hadn’t actually gone and talked to people. So they brought me in to do ⁓ interviews to find out if that was actually valid or not. And here’s an interesting thing that we learned in that people also like to lose.
It was surprising because nobody thought that anyone would ever say, like to lose. But nobody liked the feeling of losing. But what they did like from losing was the lessons they could learn because they were playing at something. It was competitive, but they were playing. It was a game type of situation. I don’t want to give away the industry, but ⁓ the premise was when I lose, I learn something that makes me better so that I can win in the future. So losing isn’t the end. And that was a huge insight that
Betty Mertens (30:53)
Uh-huh.
Sean Jordan (30:55)
could only really come from starting that laddering exercise and then trying to hear if it was valid or not. And I know they completely thought differently about their brand after doing that because losing wasn’t the end anymore. It wasn’t the result of people failing and blaming the product that they were using or anything like that. It was really the result of things just not going your way and finding new opportunities for the future. I loved that.
Betty Mertens (31:21)
Yes, I think that’s why objectivity is so important and not being so tied to something because even if your whole team is like, this is it, this is what we’re going to rally around. When you take that out and you actually do the research, sometimes I think there’s, there are some gut check moments that we’ve had with clients as a result of research where we thought that we were headed in the right direction. And then we, we got consumer feedback that
turned us in a different direction or maybe helped us refine it a little bit more and get us to a place where it’s like now, now we have a brand promise that people are gonna connect with. They’re gonna feel what we want them to feel and they’re gonna take the action that we want them to take.
Sean Jordan (32:08)
And I feel like if you’re hearing surprises in consumer research, it points to the fact that you needed to be listening in the first place. But what you often are hearing are things that kind of maybe go counter to your narrative a little bit. And it just means you need to recalibrate your narrative. Because a lot of times, consumers and customers, want companies to be successful. I found this consistently. Very few people are rooting against companies, unless those companies are really evil, than they might be.
But most of the time they want them to be successful because they want them to be employers, they want them to be a good asset to their community, they want them to be people that they’re proud of. And so if you can figure out what is driving people to think well of you, a lot of times you can learn a lot. And the surprises come from not listening and doing things that really tick people off and then not responding to them, right?
Betty Mertens (32:55)
Yeah, well, I also think there’s a very real point of this and your illustration is such a clear example of there’s a particular type of person that probably works at the company that you were hired by and that particular type of person probably really owns that like competitive. We want to win, know, I want to win all the time. But the reality is you can’t as a human, I’m not able to totally separate myself.
from my own lens that I see the world. And so that filters what I feel like is gonna be successful. And it also filters how I think other people are gonna respond. I was just having a conversation last week with a behavioral scientist that I really respect. And she was sharing with me that they did some research around the elderly community because they felt like some of a…
an issue that they needed to solve for was because older people were feeling more isolated than ever. And as they did research, what she found is that’s actually not the case. There’s a U-shaped curve, right? And where people are feeling most lonely is at the bottom of that curve in their 30s and 40s. So the people who are making decisions and trying to interpret what they’re seeing happen, they are projecting how they’re feeling on other people.
But in reality, what the research showed was they’re not lonely. Actually, they’re happy. They’ve learned more, they’re more patient. And so they had to approach things in a different way. Once they removed their own filter that they were looking through and they actually listened to the people that they were trying to talk to.
Sean Jordan (34:41)
That’s fascinating. And that’s
part of why when I was taking marketing classes in college, decided, you know, research is for me because I like facts and I like information. And ⁓ I think it’s part of what helps us to guide good strategy and good decision making. And then when you’re doing the kind of work that you’re doing, how to guide those thought processes so that you are working up that ladder and trying to find those things that matter and getting to that word or that slogan or whatever it is that helps people to really understand what you do. So I love how it all fits together and just works out.
Well, it’s been so great talking to you, Betty, and I really enjoy so many of the things that you shared, and there’s so many great insights. But one thing I always do at the end is I ask our guests if they have anything they want to plug, and you can plug anything you want. So here’s your chance. What would you like to plug?
Betty Mertens (35:29)
Well, I mean, obviously I am very passionate about what I do for a living. And if you do find yourself in a spot where you could use some objectivity for your brand, man, reach out to me. I would love to help you on behalf of Upbrand. Just look with some fresh perspective at your story and make sure that you’re set up for the future. So I think that would be my big plug. ⁓ But also,
If you’re looking for a nonprofit to support, the name of my nonprofit is Ella’s Umbrella. So you can find us online at ellasumbrella.org as well.
Sean Jordan (36:06)
And we’ll of course have all of those things as well in the show notes. So please be sure to get in touch with Betty and connect with her. She can definitely help you out. as she said, Ella’s Umbrella is always there needing your support and doing great things for kids. So please feel free to support them as well. Well, Betty, it’s been so great to have you on. Thank you so much.
Betty Mertens (36:25)
Thanks, Sean, I appreciate it.
Sean Jordan (36:28)
Wow, as always, I am just floored when I’m done with these interviews because these guests that we have on, these are people that really know their stuff. And Betty, thank you so much for being on the show. You were tremendous. And I just feel like every time I walk away from an interview like this, I’ve learned so much. And I hope our audience does too, because there are so many wonderful nuggets in there, insights, ideas, metaphors, just everything. So.
Thank you so much for listening to the Marketing Gateway. You can find all of Betty’s contact information as well as links to Ella’s umbrella in the show notes. And we’re looking forward to continuing to bring you more interviews like these. And again, I always say, if you know anybody or if you yourself are doing marketing and you’d like to come on the show and talk about it, we would love to have you, especially if you’re in the St. Louis area. So please reach out. We’d love to have you be a part of it. In the meantime…
Thanks for watching. I’m Sean in St. Louis and this has been the Marketing Gateway. We’ll see you next time.