I’m so glad we got to meet Alicia at the AMA event in early April!
Today, we are talking to Alicia Underwood from TwentyThree LLC and The Social Box LLC! We were lucky enough to meet in person at the AMA event and MDMC!
Alicia’s Plugs:
https://www.thesocialbox.co/
https://www.heytwentythree.com/
About Alicia: Alicia Underwood is the founder of TwentyThree, LLC, a digital communications and influencer marketing agency based in St. Louis. With 15 years of experience in social media strategy and brand storytelling, she partners with enthusiastic, values-driven brands to help them stand out in a crowded digital landscape. Through TwentyThree, Alicia leads strategy, creative, and execution across social media, paid media, and influencer marketing. She works with clients across healthcare, hospitality, and luxury, and is known for blending data, creativity, and culture into campaigns that move people and deliver results. Alongside her client work, Alicia is building The Social Box, a software platform designed to simplify influencer marketing workflows. She also teaches and speaks on the business of social media and influencer marketing, including at MDMC, one of the Midwest’s largest digital conferences. Additionally, she serves on the board of Social Media Club St. Louis and the Advisory Council for Asian American Dream in New York, and previously served as President of the Lafayette Square Business Association. Alicia is passionate about storytelling, community building, and helping brands grow with clarity and confidence. She lives in Webster Groves with her husband, two boys, and two cats. She also enjoys Pilates, reading, and cooking in her free time.
Contact Alicia:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/aliciaunderwood/ https://www.instagram.com/twentythree.digital/
The Marketing Gateway is a weekly podcast hosted by Sean in St. Louis (Sean J. Jordan, President of https://www.researchplan.com/) and featuring guests from the St. Louis area and beyond.
Every week, Sean shares insights about the world of marketing and speaks to people who are working in various marketing roles – creative agencies, brand managers, MarCom professionals, PR pros, business owners, academics, entrepreneurs, researchers and more!
The goal of The Marketing Gateway is simple – we want to build a connection between all of our marketing mentors in the Midwest and learn from one another! And the best way to learn is to listen.
And the next best way is to share!
For more episodes: https://www.themarketinggateway.com
Copyright 2025, The Research & Planning Group, Inc.
TRANSCRIPT:
Sean Jordan (00:07)
Well, hey, welcome to the Marketing Gateway. I’m Sean in St. Louis, and I’m so excited to get back to doing some interviews because today we have an interview with Alicia Underwood. She is the founder of 23, which is a digital communications and influencer marketing agency based here in St. Louis. And you’re going to get to hear in this interview all about influencer marketing, which is so cool and so exciting. And I was telling her after we recorded that.
I actually, I’m gonna be teaching a marketing class this fall and I actually want to get my students excited about influencer marketing. So I may tap her again to help me to figure out how to craft some assignments around that. But influencer marketing is a big deal. And as we talk about in this interview, it’s not a fad. It’s been around for a long time, a lot longer than you might realize and it’s not going anywhere. But how it works and how brands interact with it and how they utilize influencers is changing. And one of the things that Alicia does is she kind of serves as an
intermediary where she’s helping to make sure that everybody’s getting as much value out of the influencer relationship as possible, which is really cool because as you’re going to hear, she has a real heart for making sure that people are being treated fairly and that they are getting a chance to create, ⁓ be creative contributors in ways that can be really valuable and sometimes which can really elevate brands way beyond what was ever planned. So be excited about this interview. Here we go.
Sean Jordan (01:31)
Well, welcome to the Marketing Gateway. I’m Sean in St. Louis. And I’ve got with me today Alicia Underwood. And Alicia, I met you, gosh, what, a couple of weeks ago at the AMA conference where I heard you on the panel there. And we have a recap video I did last week, actually, where I talked about that panel. But I was so impressed with some of the things that you had to say. And I was like, I’ve got to have her on the show. So thank you for being on.
Alicia (01:54)
my gosh, Sean, thank you so much. It’s such an honor to be in your show. you came up, I was like, I gotta do this. And obviously, you know, listening to some of your past episodes, I was like, this is such a great ⁓ thing that you’re doing for St. Louis. So really, really happy to be here.
Sean Jordan (02:10)
Well, thank you. And you are the founder of 23, and you also are working on this project called The Social Box. And we’ll talk a little bit about both of those things. But before we get to that, let me ask you, I always ask every guest that comes on to tell me something surprising that I don’t know. can be anything you’d like to share, so surprise me.
Alicia (02:28)
question. Well, I am not originally from the States or St. Louis. I think sometimes people get confused. I always get Canada, oh, you’re from Canada, but I’m originally from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. So shout out to my home country. I actually came to the States at 17 by myself as an international student. And that’s how I ended up in St. Louis because I went to the J school at UC Missouri.
Mizzou’s J school. ⁓ I think that’s, a lot of people don’t realize that because they think I’m from St. Louis, but that’s something about me.
Sean Jordan (03:03)
That’s fantastic. Well, and ⁓ Malaysia, actually, you’re the second person in St. Louis I’ve known that’s from Malaysia. So ⁓ we’re getting some representation there.
Alicia (03:10)
You probably… Yeah,
there’s a… I’m gonna give a shout out to Mindy because Mindy’s my girl and she’s the executive director for MDMC. She is from Malaysia too, so I wonder if you met her, but she’s awesome. But yeah, we do have actually a pretty good group here in St. Louis surprisingly and obviously a lot in California and Chicago and in the big city, yeah.
Sean Jordan (03:33)
That’s fantastic.
Actually, I don’t know, Mindy said that’ll be three that I’ll know when I get to meet her.
Alicia (03:38)
my god, I gotta introduce you to Mindy. She is amazing because you don’t get a lot of Malaysians in digital marketing in St. Louis.
Sean Jordan (03:45)
That’s awesome. a college instructor, as well as what I do in my day job as a researcher, I get to know international students from all over the world. And so I’m always excited. Like, who do I know from where? And maybe one of these days I’ll travel and look some of these folks up when I’m out on the road.
Alicia (04:00)
It’s wild.
This year marks 21 years and what just happened to be an international, you know, four-year expedition, I call it, turned into a husband, into a whole different citizenship, into kids, ⁓ a whole career in St. Louis, and I feel grateful. The American people have been amazing.
Sean Jordan (04:25)
Well that’s fantastic. And what’s something about the St. Louis area that you wish other people knew?
Alicia (04:30)
my god, my god, it is such, I know when I tell people I live in St. Louis, am, I am, a lot of people will be like, isn’t it the most dangerous city in the world, like in the country? And no, I mean, I wish more people knew how beautiful and so I’m a huge history buff nerd and how historical the city is.
and everything from the museums and how many world-class institutions that we have here that is free, well mean funded by our tax dollars, but I think it’s a very community-driven city and when you are here I feel you can you can easily find something that’s for yourself. And yeah I just think I wish more people knew that about St. Louis and incredible food scene too.
Sean Jordan (05:18)
That’s great. As someone who moved here later in life, what kind of food do you really recommend to people when they come to town?
Alicia (05:26)
my God, I’ll be like, what do you want? I like, I mean, I love, I love Katie’s. We have everything from sushi to Italian and it’s affordable. And so I, so I’ll let you in a little secret. that’s a very.
Sean Jordan (05:35)
Mm-hmm.
Alicia (05:43)
amazing sushi spot that I love love love in central West End and it’s called Sushi Koi and it’s it’s really good. It really reminds me like of sushi from Japan that I’ve I’ve been there. ⁓ In terms of pasta, obviously, I think like every state was and we love Katie’s and anything in the Hill. I used to be so much more cooler in my 20s going out, you know all the time. But you know, that’s awesome like Hamilton steak and down in Lafayette Square is great so.
⁓ I wish I had more right now.
Sean Jordan (06:15)
I’ve been to many of those places. I’m a vegetarian, so I always have to be a little picky about where I go. But many of those places do have a great vegetarian option. So I’ll throw that out there.
Alicia (06:20)
Yes.
I think there’s a huge
vegetarian scene in food scene as well in, I think like neon greens is a great one I’ve heard. ⁓ But I feel like St. Louis, it doesn’t matter where you go. think ⁓ from Asian to Mexican food or even like, I’ve been wanting to try fufu sauce. So that’s on my bucket list. That’s I think, ⁓ Togolese food. So there’s Nigerian Togolese. So it’s really diverse. think people don’t realize that.
Sean Jordan (06:43)
Hmm.
Alicia (06:53)
St. Louis is a pretty diverse city.
Sean Jordan (06:56)
Definitely true, definitely true. Well, we’re so glad to have you on the show and we’re going to talk today about influencers, which is something you know a lot about. This is your specialty. And ⁓ let’s talk a little bit about this question that I think a lot of people have when they’re thinking about influencers and that is, aren’t they just kind of a fad? mean, are they really part of a modern marketing strategy or are they kind of over now?
Alicia (07:22)
It’s funny. Yes, I think here’s the thing about influencer. I don’t think it has ever changed You know, mean maybe the type of people that have come on board has changed but I I think it’s definitely more popular right now So like, you know, I think about the time when I first quote unquote started influencer marketing Which I didn’t even realize it was influencer marketing was about like what in 2010 2009 2010. So how many years ago is that like?
15, 16. This was height of YouTube. So I was really into beauty videos. So a lot of the beauty influencers would have a YouTube channel and a block spot. And I remember sending my first product out to a beauty influencer who had a YouTube channel and she was reviewing my products. And then obviously with Instagram, they came about and TikTok.
Sean Jordan (07:49)
Yeah.
Alicia (08:09)
the channel changes. so now I would just say that influencer marketing is more accessible than what it was before. ⁓ The pool of creators are larger. Before, think you got to know how to film, edit, and post. And now it’s with the iPhone and various editing tools out there. I think it makes it easy for someone to be a creator. So no, don’t think it’s a fad. I think it’s going to be more and more integrated.
into the overall marketing strategy versus being a more of a one-off thing. ⁓ That’s where I think it’s going.
Sean Jordan (08:45)
And
when we think of influencers, we’re generally thinking of people that are doing video, right? Like on TikTok or Instagram or things like that. Although Instagram influencers also, you know, traditionally maybe had photos instead of video. So is there a particular kind of media that is most associated with influencers today or are they still multimodal in terms of how they’re interacting with their audiences?
Alicia (09:05)
I think you will have niche influencers that maybe it would be more specific on TikTok or versus Instagram. think there are, you YouTube influencers are very different than say an Instagram influencer. But you know, in terms of the medium, I think it’s gonna be, you know, I don’t think it really matters what channel you’re on. You’re gonna cultivate your own community. A big one, I do think it’s going to, we’re gonna see a rise in a very niche influencer. So think of like teachers.
lawyers, ⁓ engineers, people who are very specific and niche in their skill, in the skill set. thinking, because I think we’re shifting from a generation, I think from an era of like, you know, more aspirational and people are too educational. So I do see a rise in those fields and LinkedIn. think LinkedIn is going to be the the next hotspot, I guess you could say.
Sean Jordan (09:58)
Yeah, and we’re already seeing it on LinkedIn. mean,
know several of our local marketing community members are posting daily quick videos on LinkedIn or things like that. And I’m certainly seeing it from others too. And ⁓ I never thought of LinkedIn as a social network to go to for that kind of content.
Alicia (10:07)
Yeah
Honestly,
I log into LinkedIn more than I log into Facebook. I mean, I’m ashamed to say that.
⁓ I would say LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok are my three primary platforms that I do log in. But in terms of LinkedIn, that’s where I kind of go to get educated, right? Like to know what’s going on in my world specifically, but largely in what’s going on out there with other executives. So when I see other executives or people in position of power, those are my influencers, right? Because I want to know what’s going on in the trenches versus ⁓ if you go to Instagram, you’re looking at lifestyle influencers.
Sean Jordan (10:19)
Mm-hmm.
Alicia (10:49)
or mommy influencer. So I think there is just going to be more of a category, like it’s going to be more defined in general, but ⁓ I definitely don’t think it’s going to go anywhere.
Sean Jordan (11:02)
Agreed. When I hear that it’s a fad, just think, you know, influencers have been around since before the internet. We just call them something else. We call them celebrities.
Alicia (11:10)
Exactly. mean,
think of the first Tupperware party that started with MLMs, right? They targeted moms. They would have Tupperware parties in their house. I mean, that was the original influencer. It’s just now translated from in-person to online.
Sean Jordan (11:15)
Okay.
Totally agree. Well, so there’s been a lot of buzz around influencer marketing, but behind the scenes, it’s a little bit different than maybe how it appears to the people that are in the audience. So what’s actually broken about how brands and creators work together right now? Because there are some things that aren’t working out quite so well. There are influencers that sometimes go a little rogue. There are influencers that sometimes try to promote brands that maybe they’re not right or good fit for. So tell me a little bit about that.
Alicia (11:56)
Yes, man, that’s a great first of all, it’s a loaded question, but it’s a wonderful question. It’s something that I ⁓ deal with on a daily basis. You know, it’s funny because when people see a single video that goes out, how hard is it, right? Like they were like, it’s just one video. It’s only one minute, right? It’s not a big deal. ⁓ But the operational side, so I’ll take you through those behind the scenes of how
a campaign would typically work. You start off with the brief. You’d be surprised how many brands do not have briefs for the campaigns. You have to start with that because that’s gonna consolidate your campaign messaging. In your mind, you may think, I know what I’m selling, but when you’re engaging 50 to 100 influencers,
They don’t know what you’re trying to sell. can’t just, just go to the website. Yeah, but they need to know specifically what this campaign is about. So we have the messaging part of it. We have the brief part of it. And then we have the sourcing part of it, right? Understanding not just the influencer, if they’re the target audience, is their audience the right target audience for your brand? So for example, you may, if you sell ⁓
Let’s say you sell beautiful expensive kitchenware. That’s $200 a set, you know? And you may have an influencer that you’re like, aesthetically, she fits with the vibe, but her audience are making less than $75,000. They’re not going to be spending on a $200 kitchenware. understanding their target audience and your target audience.
are there lying. So then there’s that fact. And then once you have your list, you have to reach out. So that’s the hard part, reaching out and crafting that perfect pitch. Because remember, these creators have a lot.
of brands pitching them. you’re selling to them essentially, hey, come onto our campaign. So there’s the pitch ⁓ and then there’s the negotiation that goes with it. ⁓ And then there is crafting that narrative with them and making sure that it stays authentically true to them before it gets finally posted out. And that’s just one of your creator.
Sean Jordan (14:12)
Yeah, and you know, I think when you’re talking about making a creative brief for an influencer, that doesn’t feel very natural, right? Like a marketer generally is going to want to have a lot of control over what’s said and how it’s talked about. But to an influencer, they want to be authentic. They want to feel like they’re talking to their audience in a way that is real and that’s them. And so I feel like, you know, a lot of people, when they’re looking at influencers, they don’t really think that, they’re that corporate or they’re that directed. But as you say, like if
Alicia (14:24)
and
Sean Jordan (14:41)
you don’t really understand what it is you’re trying to talk about or what it is you’re trying to sell when you’re talking to a group of people who might be interested. You can miss out on some really key hooks that might be of value to your audience. You can really misrepresent the product in a way that ⁓ might turn them off when they might have otherwise been interested. And then also you just lose that opportunity for continuity where you can continue to talk about other products in that line or that product in more detail. So I think it’s absolutely essential. And when you’re talking about ⁓
Alicia (14:52)
you
Sean Jordan (15:11)
influencers in terms of working with brands, a lot of times ⁓ they’re not real seasoned at being marketers. Like they’re seasoned at being on video or they’re seasoned at making photos or things like that, but not with working at marketers. So what are some tips that you have in terms of how they can really make sure that relationship works out?
Alicia (15:28)
So, you know, like anything in life, like guidance. So when I work with creators, you know, it’s not just transactional. I really, you know, try to guide them. And, you know, a lot of times I jump on the call with them if they have questions about, you know, basically treating them like partners and not just as a transactional point, you know, unless you’re running affiliate marketing, which is a different form of influencer marketing, you know, you really want to have that partnership started in a very, very…
So that way you can kind of build whatever you’re trying to build together and that’s what I that’s the vibe I would always try to start with with my creators as well with my clients That this is not just a one-off. It may be a one-off campaign from now But let’s treat this as a partnership and how can we co-create this together? But I always try to
allow my creators, my job is to kind of almost like a parent. I want to give you guardrails and guidelines, but I want you to create what’s true to yourself because you know your audience the best. So I’m going to give an example. We had one, I’m not going to name, but a client that was selling a healthcare, probiotic stuff. And an influencer came, she had a really huge following and she came on board and she’s like, I have what you call, she does a series called The Silent.
right? And it’s basically her doing shh. She doesn’t talk at all, but it’s like just full of ASMR sounds. And at first I was like, man, I don’t know how this is going to go because we need to share like, know, there’s a lot of like medical stuff that we want to share. But then I shared that with the client and they were like, we love it. And so we’re like, you know what, go ahead, go, go ahead and produce that. It performed.
So well, it was hilarious and the distribution score was insanely high and I think that it was a testament to like hey Yes, we have guardrails as in like, know, don’t use you know unlicensed music You know don’t you know all of that stuff like make sure you know You have to disclaimer on but we kind of really allowed her to take that creative control ⁓ And sometimes I do things I do think brands get too protective until this marketers. I think sometimes feel
they want to have so much say in the creative control, I always say treat your creators like a creative partner as you would treat a songwriter, an artist, you know, a painter, you know, you’re not, you’re going to let them draw it, but you’re not going to be like, sketch it exactly like this and paint it. And yeah, so.
Sean Jordan (18:01)
And that’s so great because that points to the fact that they know their audience. They know what their audience responds to, what they’re interested in, what drew them to them as an influencer in the first place. And so if you allow them to be a creative partner in that process and to say, here’s how we can talk to these folks and they’re gonna really resonate in a way that you’re not used to seeing, there’s so much more benefit to that than just kind of having them read a cold script or do something that’s really engineered, right?
Alicia (18:24)
⁓ 1000%.
And honestly, that’s what I’m kind of saying. It’s funny because influencers, so one of to cut down on a number of revisions is just to kind of make sure everyone’s aligned. I always have my influencers send in a script. If they’re doing a video, send in a script first because I think it’s easier to start off with that. And I don’t think influencers know how.
I know that they’re using Chachi PT because I’m getting the same script repeatedly from different influencers, but different flavor, but they all sound the same. have the same, you know, ⁓ writing method. So, yeah, so I’m kind of running into that, but that’s when I’ve always tried to be like, you know, let’s be creative here.
Sean Jordan (19:14)
you might need to give them some prompt tips. Say, if we’re to use ChatGPT, prompt it this way so it sounds a little different.
Alicia (19:20)
Yeah, no,
honestly, I’ve been like, it’s kind of one of those like, okay, I know you use chat GPT, but you know, I have had told, you know, I was like, hey, this is what we’re looking for. I would give an example, you know, and like this, like this video performed really well, you know, can we do something similar? And most of the time they do get it and eventually they’re like, okay, you know, they understand. But yeah.
Sean Jordan (19:41)
Well, I know when you’re working with influencers, there’s operational challenges that exist. So what are some of the operational challenges that you’re currently experiencing in your social and influencer marketing workflows?
Alicia (19:53)
man, where am I not experiencing? It’s funny because you mentioned that that’s literally why I’m building the social box. So the operational where we, you know, I think a lot, like we just mentioning earlier on how the workflow works. A lot of times it’s uploading content, right? Even from the influencer perspective would be like, hey.
Sean Jordan (19:55)
Ha ha.
Alicia (20:14)
Where do I upload my content? But in terms from agency in a bring in perspective, it’s how do we scale this, right? Because so there’s so much going on with just from contract negotiation, tracking usage rights, tracking their contracts, all of that. Revisions is the biggest part. That’s content feedback, making sure that’s all. ⁓
that everything looks good. So I think just finding the operation that’s not really something out there, I can tell you a lot of marketers like me, they’re all managing it on a spreadsheet. The problem with the spreadsheet is that after level 20,
It gets really confusing.
Sean Jordan (21:00)
I can imagine.
Alicia (21:02)
And you know, another part digging through for links, know, depending on the influencer, you know,
they will send different links. Some use Dropbox, some use Drive. I would send my own. I was like, oh, use this folder. They won’t use it. They end up using another Drive. So then you’re like, oh, I need access to that. making sure then tying all that together, downloading that, and then getting all the feedback from the client and then trying to. Again, this is more for obviously higher level, like influencer marketing. There are some influencer marketing in the platforms. are more. If you’re selling, say, you know.
cops it’s easier right you don’t really have you don’t really need contracts per se or maybe you do have a very easy term and condition and they can just you know check out but most of times you especially with the FTC how they are actually this morning i was reading about quints ⁓
I guess they were in legal hot water about using their creators were using unlicensed music and they got sued even that. So my job as a marketer is to always monitor that. And from an operational standpoint, I need a bird’s eye level view of seeing like, hey, are my creators compliant? ⁓ You know, do we have to disclaimer in it with we’re doing health care products and all that. So.
Sean Jordan (22:25)
And that’s a really interesting facet of this kind of work is that you often don’t think about the legal vulnerability that influencers can bring to a brand if they’re not doing things up to the standards that you might have in something that’s more produced like advertising. So ⁓ in terms of guiding the influencers that you’re working with, do you tend to kind of specify like here’s the guardrails and the ramifications that we need for this particular brand? Or do you have kind of just general guidelines you provide?
Alicia (22:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
yeah. And we do have general guidelines in the brief. Like for example, partner needs to be in above the fold, right? They need to see that. If you are doing health community of disclaimer that this is not the FDA, et cetera. But a lot of times, the big part, that’s half of my job is that it can be in the brief.
Sean Jordan (22:56)
Mm-hmm.
Alicia (23:11)
but they may not post it. So it is my job to make sure to go through that checklist and make sure, is the music, you know, is the music, you and you’d be surprised like how many times I had influencers that they would tag other accounts, you know, and I’m like, hey, you can’t do that. you know, because you’re opening up a liability. So those little nuances, legal nuances, again, I’m not a lawyer, but I try to look out for that for.
my clients. You know, like a big thing right now that I am looking into right now, it’s child labor laws because Tennessee, mean, I think California, Illinois, Tennessee just launched it. You know, incorporating into our partnership agreement with these creators of like, you know, you, if you’re using your children, you are liable to make sure to follow these XYZ law.
Sean Jordan (24:03)
And what I hope people are hearing as you’re describing this too is why it’s so important to have someone like yourself involved as kind of a wrangler or a manager or an intermediary because you’re knowledgeable not just about how to work with the influencers but also how to make sure the influencers are representing the brand in a way that’s not going to make them vulnerable to a lot of online chatter that’s going to be negative or that’s going to be regulatory problems or things like that. You’re really looking out for both sides when you’re working in that role.
Alicia (24:32)
And I think sometimes, know, ⁓ yeah, until you’re in it, it’s hard to see it. Because I think people just, again, they see the end product, and they it can’t be that hard. But if you’re trying to build something at scale.
⁓ or that’s reaching to, you whether it’s on TikTok or Instagram or LinkedIn, ⁓ you know, I think those are conversations that it’s important to have and making sure that someone’s on the polls and, you know, that, yeah, at the end of the day, my job description is I am the Wrangler of Cats. Like, I’m, you know, I just feel like I’m always hurting both sides, but that is my job and I love it.
There’s just a joke that I, you know, I think someone gave me that term like, oh, you’re like a wrangler of cats. Like, you know, I was like, yeah, I think on both sides, you know, wrangling, you know, people to rally them basically behind a brand or whatever that mission is. And, you know, to do that, you have to get by it from both sides. Sometimes, you know, where I always call myself like the mediator or, you know, the communicator in between because I can see from both perspectives.
And my goal is to always bring to be the bridge between the brand and the creator. So we have a very successful campaign. Or if a lot of creators now have talent agents, so I will work with talent agents to make sure that the content looks good.
Sean Jordan (25:54)
Fantastic. you know, one other thing that I wanted to ask you about is the whole economy of creators. So you’re working on this project, The Social Box, and you’re thinking a lot about these problems. But the creator economy has changed dramatically over the last few years, right? And it’s probably going to continue to change. So where do you see it today? Where do you see it heading next? And what should brands be paying attention to right now with the influencer economy?
Alicia (26:17)
Yeah,
yeah, I love that question. So I really think it’s going is a lot of brands are turning their group of creators into communities. So we’re going to start seeing like, I think, targets already doing it, like gamifying in the creator world. So if the creator posts XYZ, they get this. So there’s something to gamify, turning into a community and then gamifying that.
And then I think we’re going to see a very defined niche of influencers. And when I said, you know, not just from what I was saying previously about like, oh, we have a lot of educational influencers. I think we’re going to see like a failure before. think everything was just kind of lumped under influencer marketing. And now I think we’re going to see it’s a more defined, you know, we’re going to see longer term partnerships. We’re going to see creators actually be integrated into their
actual company. So I think there’s a famous financial influencer that I follow and I believe there’s a financial institution, SoFi, believe, that gave her an actual position like chief of
Sean Jordan (27:22)
Hmm.
Alicia (27:27)
something and she has you know so I think we’re going to see more of that ⁓ and then I think affiliate marketing affiliate influencer marketing creative marketing will be its own thing on its own and not really necessarily under influencer marketing so what I’m trying to say is I think it’s going to be the roles are going to be more defined more integrated ⁓ rather than just this like you know independent machine that’s running on its own
Sean Jordan (27:52)
Yeah, because affiliate marketing, mean, that’s really more about doing the codes where people can get some kind of referral or giving some kind of product referral link or something like that. And that one is really more about what can you do to drive traffic my way. But influencer marketing, can see where having them have a seat at the table in terms of ⁓ decisions that are being made or ⁓ the way that audiences are being reached out to.
Alicia (28:03)
Thank
Sean Jordan (28:17)
it could be really valuable to brands, especially when those brands are used to the more traditional forms of advertising or even the, what are becoming more traditional forms of digital marketing. ⁓ Influencers could really help them to have a cutting ⁓ edge kind of approach and be ready to anticipate what’s coming next.
Alicia (28:26)
Thank you.
1000 % and that’s how actually influenced marketing really started. It was affiliate marketing. Brands would create codes and send influencers with a free product and they would post it and I think that there will always be a section of influencers that still does that right? But I think influencers and creators are also becoming more picky about who they want to align themselves with and how that looks like longer term wise. And I’m seeing definitely more partnerships so instead of one-off content you know
influencers will have longer term contracts with a brand. ⁓ But I think that’s the fun part of influencer marketing is that there’s not a defined path. So you get to be creative and start figuring out how do you integrate them ⁓ in a way that works for your brand.
Sean Jordan (29:22)
And we’re seeing some evolutions in the corporate world right now where there have been what I call in-house influencers that are not necessarily paid. But the Staples baddie would be a great example. I did a video on her a few weeks ago where ⁓ she’s recording videos about the printing that they offer at this particular Staples location. She wasn’t asked to do that, just took it on herself to do it. ⁓ So when you’re starting to see like,
Alicia (29:33)
you
Sean Jordan (29:47)
corporate influencers kind of rise within the ranks of the actual people that are in these corporations. Do they have a place in the world of influencers or are they kind of just a reflection of what’s going on in the broader world or what do you see there?
Alicia (30:01)
think they definitely have a place in the world. think it’s just a matter. think, again, going back to the niche influencers, there’s a huge influencer, a corporate, corporate influence is a huge one. ⁓ Especially, I think they were born out of COVID time. ⁓ No, I do think they have their own place. think it’s just as a brand, if you’re thinking about monetizing it or strategically partnering, it’s just like, how does this work? ⁓ How does this really work for our brand? ⁓
Sean Jordan (30:15)
Mm-hmm.
Alicia (30:30)
I think where we’re moving as well is to like, call these influencers like more like advocate influencers, advocate marketing, more so than influencer marketing. So if you already have an existing employee within your brand, say like the Staples guy or that ⁓ Chifilee gal who work, they all work for this company and it became like a spinoff. know, how do we, you know, that’s a conversation as a brand or as a company. Like, how do we, do we penalize that or do we reward that?
⁓ that behavior. But you know you’re running into a huge you know what’s the guardrails for that if one you know just because one person’s doing it and if you do agree that hey this is free marketing this is great employees love us why not I mean you’re opening a door as well to 10 more thousands of employees doing that and that what what would the crisis communication look like because anytime you open a door you got to prepare for a set of crisis that could potentially happen.
Sean Jordan (31:28)
Especially if they leave, in which case. Right.
Alicia (31:30)
or if you leave or something bad happens or, know, et
cetera, what does that look like? But I do, you know, again, but to look at it on a positive side, I do think that’s going to be also the next wave of creator marketing. It’s like, you know, I think for a long time, people think being a creator, you need to look a certain way, you need to be a certain way, you need to speak a certain way. But I think now almost anyone can be an influencer. It’s the…
I guess the bigger question is whether you’re an influencer from an employee perspective or you’re a true blue creator, ⁓ how are you drawing in that audience? are you drawing it from an ethical perspective? Are you drawing in it from an entertainment perspective? And how do brands, and as brands, really, really thinking deeply.
how you’re aligning yourself. I sometimes I think brands get too excited. They just think, audience, let’s partner ⁓ up. you know, like, hey, how does this look like in a year from now? How does this look?
Sean Jordan (32:35)
Well,
and you mentioned audience size. So I just saw on LinkedIn recently, I think you were on another show and you were talking about how, you know, there was this drive to have these like influencers that had these huge audiences. And a lot of people are realizing now in the marketing space that you know what the large audience is not necessarily where it’s at. It’s sometimes the smaller, more engaged niche audiences that are really valuable for influencer content. So what are you learning there and what recommendations would you offer to marketers on that?
Alicia (32:47)
Yeah.
Yeah!
Yeah, I mean that’s a great question again. This is like no shade on like, know larger influences But I think traditionally with influencer marketing really started it’s like, you know the brands we all wanted the large influencers because we thought larger following equals Larger reach and it’s not the case anymore because you know, ⁓ as we are all aware, ⁓ That was a huge change in the algorithm push. I think two three years ago ⁓ where smaller creators could get so anyway You could have 10 000 follows and you could potentially get more reach from your videos than say someone
⁓ with 200,000 followers. So I always tell marketers, when you’re running a campaign, obviously have your funnel, right? You have your funnels, but don’t just get too caught up on.
the top level funnel, right? Like try to see things on, you know, and I think where the real metric lies and for me at least with a lot of my campaigns, I want distribution. So I, it’s great to have maybe, yes, it’s maybe cool to have someone with $200,000 posting about this, but.
At the end of the day, that doesn’t really matter to me if that 200,000 followers influencer is only getting a thousand views versus someone with 13,000 followers, but we got 60,000 views from it. Which one? You know, which one is bad? Yeah.
Sean Jordan (34:26)
Yeah, completely.
Yeah, and I think that especially as, and I’m not, again, not throwing shade at anyone here, but as we get into this age where there are a lot of fake audiences, there’s a lot of fake content ⁓ looking for results in terms of are we generating something that’s real, improvable, and useful to our brand, or just something that’s making numbers go up? There’s a big difference between those two things.
Alicia (34:37)
⁓ yeah.
And that’s where the disconnect I see a lot with pricing in terms of influencers pricing from their agents. A lot of agents like, oh, she has a million followers and that’s why she, we need $30,000 for this. And to me, it’s like, so I actually did run a campaign for another client and we had influencers that were 250,000, 300,000. I am not kidding you. It was yielding 2,000 reach.
Sean Jordan (35:24)
Hmm.
Alicia (35:24)
2000
views and it just got and it was consistent and I was just like what’s going on like why you know so I like to tell like you know creators, talent agents ask for that money but you need data to back it up and just telling me that hey I have a hundred thousand followers it’s that’s giving 2016
In 2016, it wouldn’t work in 2026 because at the end of the day, the data doesn’t lie. And we have to report this back to the C suite to justify why we spend XYZ amount of dollars. So ⁓ that’s another part why brands hiring me is that I think because of influencer marketing, there is not a standard pricing ⁓ procedure. a lot of them, honestly, do you get, you
take it for ride, you know, because they don’t know, like, I guess $10,000. And I do do I do my math, like, you know, I’m like, okay, you are your average views are, say 1500. These are your rates, I would like to be in somewhere this and we can talk about pay usage. So I have kind of a framework when I go in and negotiate, I just don’t throw in prices. But a lot of times brands will be like, I didn’t even realize we could do that or, you know,
Sean Jordan (36:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Alicia (36:46)
that’s a way to negotiate for things. was like, Yeah. Yeah.
Sean Jordan (36:48)
Yeah, and to help articulate the value on both sides so that ⁓ it’s a fair
and productive, hopefully, relationship that can form instead of just the transactional, we hired an influencer to try to reach this audience and then we’re never going to work with them again.
Alicia (37:02)
Exactly, because it’s just not going to put a good taste in anyone’s mouth. And I believe in, I advocated for.
Influences to get paid before it was this got paid. I mean I started influencer marketing in 2015 I introduced contracts I remember it looks at some influences like why do I have a sign of contract brands were like that’s kind of weird We have contracts, but we need contracts You know, I advocated for them to get paid back in the day was 75 bucks, know $100 was much smaller or 10 bucks but obviously not to the level what we’re seeing now, but I advocated so
I think it’s a huge economy. think, you know, it’s still, I will call it, it’s still, it’s not an infancy. It’s not, it’s like in a teenage years right now. So brands are aware, creators are aware, but I think there, needs to be fair for all sides involved.
Sean Jordan (37:54)
totally agree. And I want to change topics for just a moment, since you just mentioned fairness, because ⁓ something that I just saw that you published, what, a week or two ago, ⁓ and again, we were connected on LinkedIn, so that’s where I see some of this stuff, but you had this great article that you wrote, and I just wanted to bring it up for a minute because it really moved me reading it. But you were talking about how there was a CEO recently who was retiring, who was retiring with millions of dollars, and ⁓ that…
Alicia (37:58)
Yeah.
Sean Jordan (38:20)
that everybody was really excited about that, but then you were thinking about the fact that they went and got a lot of labor overseas, and a lot of that labor probably wasn’t compensated with millions of dollars. ⁓ In fact, it was probably kind of left high and dry when this person sold their company. And I can’t articulate it as well as you did, but I remember reading this thing and just being really taken aback by it. shared it. Could you tell me a little bit about that article and what motivated you to write it?
Alicia (38:27)
Mm.
Thank you, rage. I was so angry, Sean. I, once I get into something, was, it was just, it was rage, honestly. I was rage. I wish there was a nicer way of putting it, but no, it was rage. then I, coincidentally, I had a, I had a business coaching session with my girl, Maribel, which is amazing. ⁓ And I was talking through this with her.
Sean Jordan (38:49)
You
Alicia (39:16)
And I don’t know what happened. just was like, after that call, I was like, I’m going to write. I’m going to write. I went to DJ school. Like I turned that rage into writing. So took me, know, and I’ve written about it. I’ve talked about it in the past. It’s just never really consolidated into words. I wrote it for, not kidding you, like I think 18 hours, you know, just really sitting down with my thoughts. And.
researching and all of that. And so I think it’s funny because to a lot of Americans, I’ve spoken to some Americans about it and they were like, I don’t, they literally don’t understand. They were like, they’re getting paid more. So what’s the big deal?
than the local. I’m like, but when I showed them the article, they’re like, ooh, I didn’t even think about it. you know, my, know, obviously I grew up in the region, you know, my family and so many people from in that era. mean, that entire region from the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Vietnam, I mean, the whole entire region, they were, we were colonized for hundreds of years. We were sold, we were colonized, we were sold like, and you can still see if you go to that, you know, to
whether you’re Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines or whatever, it’s still really poor. It’s really poor because it’s hundreds of years of sourcing that’s been, know, resources that’s been taken and flipped in the West and if to build infrastructure in the West. So when I see…
I try to see things in terms of infrastructure and what that looks like and policies. And so, yeah, I got really upset. again, this is no shade to, you know, we’re a global, global world now. This is not about building teams, having actual centers, you’re building actual teams, you are paying into the system. These are the people that basically capitalize on the gap.
and then marketing it as opportunity. It’s not, it’s not opportunity. mean, it’s just a new form of, you know, capitalism, know, colonialism. so you’re basically taking resources and, know, and…
Sean Jordan (41:26)
Mm-hmm.
Alicia (41:32)
At the end of the day, they didn’t walk away. They probably get paid what $24,000 a year with no benefits at most. And he walked away with $51 million and we’re celebrating that. And I’m like, that’s to me, it’s not worth celebrating. So a big part of it is I build, even with my tech start, I was talking to my developer about this. ⁓
It’s ethical outsourcing. I’m really huge into that. I’m really big into that because I think it’s so easy to cannibalize and say, and then from the lens of like, we’re giving you more opportunity. But are we though, are we really giving more opportunity when we’re just really using them per se? And so it’s uncomfortable, but I think that’s somewhat this.
Sean Jordan (42:23)
Yeah,
well, and I think one of the things you talked about in the article, which I agree with wholeheartedly, is that there is a difference between going in and building a partnership where you’re helping the community, you’re providing jobs that are long lasting, you’re building skills and helping kids go to college, things like that. That’s different from just going in and exploiting a workforce. And I’ve had friends from Southeast Asia, who from Vietnam, Philippines and
Alicia (42:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sean Jordan (42:51)
other places as well and they’ve described very much what you described in the article which is no coming in and ⁓ giving people jobs but then as soon as it’s not profitable to have them as workers anymore we’re gone they lose those jobs they don’t have anything to fall back on because we didn’t build anything for them.
Alicia (43:02)
Mm-hmm.
And what’s
really sad is there’s no protection. These people are getting paid 10.99. So we’re not paying into their retirement system. There’s no unions. Like literally, if they’re sick, they’re out. Like there is no, I mean, so we just treat them like a line item, like an expense item. And that’s where I have a problem with, right? So it’s just like, know, America, if you want to flip it to the American perspective, you know,
A lot of college kids are struggling to get jobs because they need at least what, 50, 60 grand to start, right, to just live in today’s world, but we’re outsourcing that to someone making $24,000. So now, you know, from an American’s perspective, you’re just like, okay, you know, they have to start somewhere too. So we’re not even giving them that opportunity. So I have a huge problem with that gap, you know, that, you know, I don’t think.
you know, maybe I’m too idealistic, maybe I’m too, you know, but I do have a problem with the gap. Obviously, you know, kudos to him. He made $51 million. You know, but I like, you know, he, you know, is buying Ferraris and, you know, living in a $10 million mansion. But, you know, that’s one part I do. And it’s becoming a thing. So that’s one movement I feel strongly about is ethical outsourcing and what that looks like.
Sean Jordan (44:26)
Well, and I’ll just point out that this dovetails so well with what you’re doing for the influencer community because in your role at 23, like you’re really trying to look out for people that could be taken advantage of, who have a value and who can build real partnerships that could be valuable for both sides. But you have to guide them and you have to help them know that they’re being taken advantage of. And so I think
Alicia (44:37)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Sean Jordan (44:50)
your perspective helps to inform what you do for the influencer. I’m really glad that you are able to share this perspective so well. And I’ll link the article up in the show notes, of course, because I want people to read it.
Alicia (45:01)
my God, thank you so much. I will love I was nervous about posting it, but I’m really glad I did so I think you know, I do think there’s a lot of money to go around and I think you know, obviously, you know America is a beautiful country and a lot of innovation that comes from you know from you know, I’m able to innovate in the social box because I am given the environment to do so but I think that
bigger conversation we need to have as well is as we innovate, as we create new industries or, you know, whatever we’re doing, you know, I think the ethical portion has to come with it as well. And is this ethically sourced? Is this ethically, are we doing this? Or are we, you know,
Are we using someone or something for our own advantage? it’s just, at the end of the day, we need to build better worlds. I know I’m not saving lives. I’m not a doctor. ⁓ I’m not a neurosurgeon. But I think whatever we do in our lives, whether we are a professor, whether we have to leave a mark, are we building a better world?
I think if we can all lead with that, especially in marketing, think a lot of marketing, I think in marketing, sometimes we can feel that our work is not, I wouldn’t say superficial, right? We just marketed, but we are the bridge between, we’re communicators and we’re the bridge between brands and create influencers or whatever that may be. And I think it’s up to us to always facilitate a fair world.
Sean Jordan (46:37)
So true, so true. hey, I’ll just mention those people that are saving lives every day, they still check out product. They still watch influencers. They need a break from the heavy stuff that they’re dealing with. So never feel like it’s unimportant because it does definitely help them out.
Alicia (46:44)
That’s true, I know. That’s true.
you
I know when I see DACA, it’s like, dang, you really saved a life. And I got two influencer products. ⁓ But all of us have a role. as a world get, know, our role is so global and where I challenge people, you know, it’s like, you know, try to think from, again, that’s why I think I’m such a history buff. I love history because I think the history is the window to where we are today. ⁓
and how certain places and certain parts of the world is what it is, because it’s a culmination of all the policies and what has happened 50, 100 years ago. And I think people sometimes have a hard time understanding that.
Sean Jordan (47:34)
Very true, very true. Well, Alicia, it’s been so great to talk with you, and I’m so glad we could have you on the Marketing Gateway. And one thing I ask everyone to do when they are ⁓ in the last question is to plug something. ⁓ this is your opportunity. By the way, I want to mention before I get to that, ⁓ after this episode goes out, we’re recording it the day before, but you’re going to be speaking at the MDMC. And after this episode goes out, you’ll have spoken at two conferences that I know of this month, maybe more. ⁓
But you’re speaking and you’re out there doing things. So people can definitely check the show notes for information on what you’re doing. They can check out your social media accounts and things like that. But here’s your chance to plug something. So what would you like to plug?
Alicia (48:15)
⁓ Shany, well, obviously I have to plug Socialbox. ⁓ The Socialbox is the is project management tool that we’re developing specifically end end for influencer marketing. So these are for agency marketers. It’s a three portal system. So one uploads for brands to check out their where the campaigns are and for agencies to feel they can finally relax and
not worry about spreadsheets. yes, social box, the social box.co. ⁓ I’m still working on a dot com, but apparently it’s going to cost me $25,000. ⁓
Sean Jordan (48:54)
Well,
.co is good enough, and with a good enough ⁓ influencer and link strategy, I’m sure people will find it all the same.
Alicia (49:01)
Yes,
and for my consulting work, hey23.com. You can always find me there. That’s my agency. We do a lot of social media and influencer marketing. We have so much fun. But yeah, I’m really, really, really grateful, that we met on LinkedIn. We met at AMA. And thank you so much for letting me be a part of this show. I mean, I had a great time.
Sean Jordan (49:27)
Likewise, likewise, we’re so glad to have you on.
Sean Jordan (49:30)
As usual, I am just awestruck by the opportunity to get a chance to listen to one of our great marketing mentors here in St. Louis. And thank you, so much for being on. Thanks for sharing your passion. also, I want to encourage you all to check out what Alicia is doing online. You can go to ⁓ hey23.com to check out her website. And you can also go to thesocialbox.co to check out The Social Box, which is her project management platform for influencer marketing.
And it’s so cool that she’s offering this because like she said, you know, a lot of this is being done on spreadsheets right now. Now there’s some place where influencers and marketers can go and talk to each other and find ways to connect and build real meaningful relationships. So thank you so much for being on Alicia. And I just want to mention as well, we’re so excited to have folks like Alicia on the show ⁓ because we get to learn from each other. We get to talk about what we’re doing here in St. Louis and
all the exciting marketing ⁓ knowledge and opportunities that are available here. So if you are in St. Louis or the Midwest and you’d like to be a guest, please go to themarketinggateway.com and sign up. I can’t promise we’ll use everybody that signs up, but what I can promise is that if we feel like you’re a good fit for what we’re doing, we’ll definitely try to have you on. in the meantime, I hope you’ll continue watching and listening because we are so excited to continue to provide.
this sort of content and we got a lot more of it on the way. So thanks so much. I’m Sean in St. Louis. This has been the Marketing Gateway and we will see you next time.
Leave a Reply