He’s a former student of mine, and now a friend, and I’m excited to have him on the show!
What is people analytics, and how does it relate to marketing? Find out today as we talk with Richmond Addo Danquah!
About Richmond:
With a global lens and a passion for solving business-critical problems, I lead People Analytics for 3 business groups at Thermo Fisher Scientific, impacting over 43,000 employees worldwide. My role bridges data, research and strategy, partnering with senior leaders across HR, & the business (Finance, Commercial, Operations, R&D, etc ) to inform decisions that drive performance, efficiency, and growth. My work spans a broad portfolio of high-impact initiatives, including: _Organizational health and retirement risk analyses_ Accelerated hiring strategies for commercial teams _Identifying traits of top-performing sales reps_Location & Cost Optimization Strategy _Product Management Team Enhancement_Identifying and mitigating preventable turnover issues specifically for Early tenures & HIPOs _Training 200+ global HR professionals to adopt self-service analytics_ Spans & layers optimization, leadership pipeline reviews, and more Each project is designed to not just answer questions but to spark action to improve business outcomes. I bring a unique blend of business & financial acumen, data fluency, research skills and a builder’s mindset to every engagement.
Contact Richmond: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richmond-addo-danquah-sphr-93b58a79
The Marketing Gateway is a weekly podcast hosted by Sean in St. Louis (Sean J. Jordan, President of https://www.researchplan.com/) and featuring guests from the St. Louis area and beyond.
Every week, Sean shares insights about the world of marketing and speaks to people who are working in various marketing roles – creative agencies, brand managers, MarCom professionals, PR pros, business owners, academics, entrepreneurs, researchers and more!
The goal of The Marketing Gateway is simple – we want to build a connection between all of our marketing mentors in the Midwest and learn from one another! And the best way to learn is to listen.
And the next best way is to share!
For more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/@TheMarketingGateway
Copyright 2025, The Research & Planning Group, Inc.
TRANSCRIPT:
Sean Jordan (00:00)
Hey, it’s Sean and St. Louis, and welcome to the Marketing Gateway. And as always, we have an awesome guest for you today. Now, this is a guy that I have known for a while because he was one of my students back at SIUE in the Master of Marketing Research program in 2019. And we’re going to talk about that in the interview. He has come so far since I had him in the classroom. And he had come from far before then too, because he’s originally from Ghana. His name is Richmond Adodonkwa, and he is
one of my favorite people in the world because he is so smart and so just full of positive energy. You’re going to love him. But let me tell you a little bit about him. So Richmond is currently leading people analytics at Thermo Fisher Scientific. He has also worked at Deloitte and at Centene during his time here in the US. And as you’re going to hear, he’s got a background in the financial industry as well. And one of the things that he’s really focused on doing is taking the tools that I use all the time in marketing research and he’s using them to help
with this field of people analytics where they’re looking at their 43,000 employees and saying, how do we retain them? How do we keep them? And that might not sound like marketing at first, but this is internal marketing. This is about looking at how to apply the principles and the ideas of data and research and marketing to make people want to stick around in a company where you don’t want to lose them because it’s brain drain. It’s not only expensive to have them leave your company, but you lose their knowledge, their expertise, and potentially give that to a competitor.
It’s a really important field and it’s really cool how he’s able to use these techniques to accomplish that goal. So you’re going to learn a lot from him. But of course, he is also someone who is thinking about other people and he’s going to talk a little bit as well about how he’s been putting himself out there to help internationals that want to become a part of our community here in the United States that want to immigrate successfully. He’s doing that too. So exciting. Enjoy this interview.
Sean Jordan (01:56)
Hey everyone, it’s Sean in St. Louis and I have with me today my friend, former student, awesome colleague, Richmond Adedogwa. Richmond, it is so great to have you on and I know I asked you, do you go by Richmond or Rich these days? And you said, still Richmond, although at work you have to go by Rich because what was it?
Rich (02:10)
You
Yeah, people often confuse me with Richard. I’m not Richard. I’m Richmond. So I always thought they’d meet me halfway So you can call me Richmond or can call me rich. I’m fine with both
Sean Jordan (02:25)
Awesome, awesome. Well, I’ll call you Richmond because that’s what I know you as from ⁓ when we were in class together, but let’s start off. I always ask guests when they are on Marketing Gateway to tell me something surprising that I don’t know. So can be anything you want to share, surprise me.
Rich (02:29)
You
Yeah, I think it’s always interesting when I talk people, I come from a very large family. So I would ask you a question, I’ll throw it back to you. ⁓ You understand in Africa, you we do have, we tend to have large families. And so typically, if I tell people I have a large family, I like for them to guess how large is my family. And I’m talking about just the nuclear, not extended like, you know, my siblings.
Sean Jordan (03:00)
Right, yeah, so
here in the Midwest, a large family would probably be like six to eight kids and, know, mother, father, so maybe 10 people.
Rich (03:08)
interesting. Well, ⁓ I come from a family of 14, 14 kids and I’m the eldest. So it’s really big.
Sean Jordan (03:15)
Wow, and you’re the oldest? So how young is the youngest?
Rich (03:18)
Yep, I’m the artist.
That’s a good question. Probably, probably maybe 12, 11 ish. So here’s the fact, it’s not from the same mom. It’s just my dad has many wives. So I tend not to know some of my siblings at all, even with their age, but I still consider them as family, you know. So, but I would say around 12, 11, yes. Yeah.
Sean Jordan (03:41)
of course. That’s fascinating. That’s fascinating.
And yeah, I would say even by Midwestern standards, 14 kids would be a very large family.
Rich (03:51)
It
is, it is here in the US anytime I talk to people it’s like wow, interested, like yeah, interested industrial.
Sean Jordan (03:58)
Now are you planning to have 14 kids of your own?
Rich (04:01)
my goodness, that’s my wife. No, no, no. Not at all, not at all. That’s too much to handle. I’ve got two boys and yeah, it is a handful. yeah. yeah.
Sean Jordan (04:10)
Two boys is plenty. Well,
you know, I have three kids in my house and one of them is about to graduate from high school and ⁓ boy, we’re ready for it. She has two. ⁓
Rich (04:21)
Yeah, I think
the interesting part is as they get to the teenage, like I’ve observed with my first son, ⁓ Othniel, he’s kind of changing to be a little bit hard to manage, ⁓ which I get to understand because as they grow, they tend to become like, okay, I hear you, but I just want to do it this way. But yeah, I’m excited for it and looking forward to, you know, that teenage age as well.
Sean Jordan (04:47)
It’s so interesting because I just wrote a piece yesterday for some of my clients about listening and I always talk about teenagers when I talk about listening because they’re so bad at it. ⁓ They’re great at hearing, they’re not good at listening.
Rich (04:59)
I can do it.
It’s funny, just this morning, my son is very fond of leaving the light on after he brushes his teeth in his bathroom all the time. I’ve said this like one million times. This morning, I came downstairs, I’m like, hey, Odi, your light is on. I’ve been telling you, put the light off in the bathroom. He’s like, I hear you. I just turn around, I came back, you were just sitting in the exact same position. He did not move.
Sean Jordan (05:09)
Mm-hmm.
It’s thermostats, lights on, making sure that the kids actually put their dishes away. These are things every parent deals with,
Rich (05:32)
Yeah,
but it’s fun. It’s fun. It’s just that kind of learning experience for me. yeah, it’s all good stuff.
Sean Jordan (05:39)
Fantastic. Well, you know, in this series of the Marketing Gateway, we are really focused on the St. Louis area and you live in the St. Louis area. I know you work remotely and you said you’re going to school remotely and you’re not originally from the St. Louis area. So tell me a little bit about how you came to live and work here.
Rich (05:57)
Yeah, so long short story is back in Ghana, I was looking forward to, you know, moving outside of country to come study. Honestly, my favorite country was Germany. I’d always been a fan of Germany. I applied to a couple of schools. I got accepted, but for some reason I wasn’t so much into going. And so one of my uncles, my dad’s brother actually came to St. Louis and I didn’t know until when I started my school application. It’s like, Hey,
I said, SIE, I beg your pardon. She’s like, hey, have you considered SIE? I’m like, what is SIE? Like Southern Illinois Investing in Eglinton. I’m like, OK. And I applied. So literally, I had no idea, like the St. Louis area, how it looks like and stuff like that. But for the good thing, I applied, got funding, and I came. And the funny story is, when I came, there’s something that happened in St. Louis. I think there was some shooting that happened or, yeah.
something like that, like a rouse. think a black person was killed and it became a big issue. So one of my friends called me and like, hey, I heard this in the news. Please be careful. I’m like, don’t worry. I don’t live anywhere near ⁓ wherever you’re talking about. But ever since, it’s been a very nice place, fun place. And you know, I’ve been here for the past, this is my ninth year living around this area. And I enjoy it. ⁓ People are nice. Everybody’s nice. And I like just the serenity of the environment itself.
Sean Jordan (07:22)
So you would have come here right after Michael Brown was shot and the Ferguson situation going on. I was a protester in that. I was standing on the side of the black community. the reason I was was because Ferguson is about 15 minutes from my office. And every time you’d see it on the news, it looked like the whole place was on fire. And I was like, I’m in my office and nothing’s going on.
Rich (07:27)
Yep, Ferguson.
Sean Jordan (07:46)
So I went over there to talk to the protesters to find out what it was all about. And I learned a lot and decided I was on their side. But even that block of Ferguson that they showed on the news all the time is just one little part of town. Like the rest of the town was fine. And so they made it look like St. Louis was just this horrible war zone. And it was really just one block.
Rich (07:46)
you
Exactly. No, exactly. That is how it looked
like from the outside. Because even when my friend was saying it, I’m like, I don’t see anything. Like, ⁓ shooting. I’m like, OK. ⁓ But I’m safe. I’m safe. But yeah, it was Michael Brown, I think Ferguson area. Exactly that was the situation. Yes, that’s correct.
Sean Jordan (08:13)
you
Yeah, wow, can only imagine coming in as ⁓ someone who you look like a lot of the folks in town who have dark skin, but you’re from a different country. You probably get mistaken a lot for all kinds of things. And ⁓ it probably was a little bit like, what’s going on here? I don’t understand how to deal with this because this is not at all what I expected. So I can imagine that was a pretty shocking experience for you.
Rich (08:49)
Yeah, honestly speaking, I think it wasn’t shocking just because of, you know, I had lived in Collinsville, Edwardsville and I wasn’t that close to Ferguson. So honestly, I didn’t even know what was going on out there. A friend told me, I’m like, oh, okay. But it’s not a good thing, but I think I’m okay. So culturally, think there are a few instances, yes, I was culturally shocked, but overall, I think my environment was also very helpful.
Sean Jordan (09:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Rich (09:14)
for me to minimize the cultural shock, know, just being an immigrant coming in from Africa into the US. But yeah, I think that was it. It wasn’t that really shocking, just because I wasn’t that close to the situation. But I think when I heard about it, I started reading, I’m like, oh, okay, that is not fun at all. I wasn’t expecting this to happen here.
Sean Jordan (09:36)
Interesting. Well, thanks for sharing. by the way, I’ll mention, and we’re going to talk about this later on in our interview here. One of the reasons Richmond and I can talk frankly about these things is because he really thinks a lot about people that are coming in as immigrants and he’s helping them a lot of times with their immigration process. So we don’t mind talking frankly about these things because he’s helping people all the time. So, well, Richmond, one of the things I wanted to also ask you, and this is especially since you’ve been here for nine years now, what is something about the St. Louis area that you wish other people knew?
Rich (09:44)
you
Yeah! Yeah.
okay. I probably would say maybe I’m selfish about this. I’m a huge fan of soccer. Like I enjoy playing soccer all the time. And there’s a huge community in St. Louis ⁓ that, you know, that really enjoys playing soccer. It would interest you to know that it’s all kinds of people, like different countries, different colors, different backgrounds, different religion, ⁓ different like age group. I do play soccer with people who are like 65, 68, and they are strong as, and this is something that
I have never seen in my life, you know, where I grew up from, maybe 30, 40-ish, you see them playing, but at that age. So I think that kind of community in terms of like soccer community with all kinds of people in it, for me, it’s a big deal for me because that is what I love. That is what I enjoy doing. And so finding out there’s such a huge community like that, ⁓ it’s something that I always wish people would know. Cause for us from Africa, that is what we tend to enjoy. About 80 % of us love soccer.
So when they see something like that, it’s something that, OK, I can go out and have fun and exercise and all that kind of stuff.
Sean Jordan (11:10)
And I’m just curious in Ghana where you’re from, do they call it soccer? Do they call it football? Is there a different name for it?
Rich (11:16)
See, I’ve already changed.
It’s called football. I haven’t forgotten it yet. It’s football. ⁓
Sean Jordan (11:25)
Yeah, I had a feeling. I was just curious.
Because, you know, it’s funny, like St. Louis has this heritage of ⁓ soccer, football going back pretty far. And we just recently got our own team, as you know, I’m sure you know, and ⁓ that we have this heritage that we have not really been tapping until fairly recently. I was actually surprised to learn that when they brought the Energizer Park into town and set it up and the St. Louis city FC. So ⁓
Rich (11:36)
Yep. Yeah.
Sean Jordan (11:52)
It really surprised me to know St. Louis had such an origin in American popularization of soccer, and yet hardly anybody here, except for the international community, seems that interested in it.
Rich (12:03)
You know, the interesting part about even the Energizer Park is have you had a chance to visit it? ⁓ Go was, ⁓ you should, you should. The first time I went with my family, I’m like, wow, I did not know you guys love soccer. And to the point that you just mentioned, like, you know, they had history of soccer, but it wasn’t that maybe at a point in time, people just give up on it. But you can see the passion. You can see people really love this game all the time. The park is full. Like anytime I’ve been there.
It’s just full pack. People just standing on their toes chanting. I’m like, wow, this is passion. So that is something we didn’t know until you visit the stadiums. But OK, people really, really love soccer.
Sean Jordan (12:42)
It makes you wonder if we ever got a cricket stadium if people would show up for that too. One day maybe.
Rich (12:45)
⁓ I think
maybe one day, I think for most part people want to go out and you know, release stress and stuff like that. Until you take the initiative, you wouldn’t know that people really love these things. I guess until they built the Energizer Stadium, they did not know, these people really, really are into soccer. So maybe you never know ⁓ the passion that people would come support the cricket.
Sean Jordan (13:11)
Fantastic. it’s always good to talk St. Louis, but let’s talk a little bit now about marketing and more specifically research, because that’s where you and I both have a common denominator. You were a student in my qualitative research class back in, what was it, 2019, I think, right before the pandemic.
Rich (13:26)
Yeah, 2019. Yep,
2019. 2019.
Sean Jordan (13:30)
And you were part of one of the largest classes I ever taught there, which ⁓ that I can remember all of you guys so well just speaks to what a great group of people you were. ⁓ yeah, but we had a lot of, we had a lot of just standout students and you were one of them. I mean, so many of you guys have gone on to great things. So it’s fun to talk, you know, what seven years later and kind of see like, I’m getting ready to teach that class again, in fact. And, you know, I’ll be teaching that there’s a different cohort now.
Rich (13:38)
⁓ we appreciate that. We appreciate that.
Wow.
Sean Jordan (13:58)
It’s a lot smaller, you know, so it’s been a while since we’ve been in the classroom together. But when I first met you, you, you, you know, I was trying to get everybody’s name straight. And you told me that I could remember your name, Richmond, because you were going to be a rich man one day. And I remember that so clearly, but I hope it’s working out for you by the way. But what I didn’t, what I didn’t know, and I didn’t know until I saw you posting on LinkedIn fairly recently, is you actually worked in the financial industry back when you were back at home in Ghana. So.
Rich (14:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sean Jordan (14:28)
⁓ You have these great pictures of yourself, you know, in a suit, you know, standing there with your banking colleagues. And ⁓ that’s really cool. I didn’t know that when I first met you. So tell me a little bit about how you decided to go from that life into becoming a research professional. Because to me, like, it’s kind of like me jumping from retail, which is where I was working into, you know, research and becoming a research professional. It’s just a really different life. So how did you make that journey?
Rich (14:53)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Let me comment on the Richmond staff. Probably give me five years. I would answer that question properly. I’m not there yet. ⁓ But yeah, so interestingly, I studied Actuarial Science. So I have a very strong analytical background. But on campus, I happened to get an opportunity to do an internship with a bank. And for some reason, I really enjoy talking to people. I really enjoy selling to people.
I really enjoyed listening to my customers. I’m like, okay, let me try and see how I can help you. And so I had done the internship, I think I did two years straight. And I realized, no, I don’t think I want to go into the actuarial field. I think I want to do something different. I enjoy selling, I enjoy marketing. I enjoy the relationship management. And so ⁓ when I finished school, I did my national service with the same bank that I was doing my internship. And I got, you know, I was fortunate to
be brought on full time. And I really, really enjoyed it. In fact, when I was doing my internship, I built relationship. And so when I was doing my national service and even the full time, for me, if you give me a target, I easily could achieve it because I had already built my relationship over time. And I recall very extensively, I was given a very huge target. I visited one of my clients, don’t worry, I’ll give it to you on Monday. And that was it. ⁓ So I really enjoyed it. And I guess part of me,
Like I told you before, I come from a very large family. So it’s always about relationship. It’s always about taking care of each other. So that was the passion which made me go into banking. I don’t regret experience. I don’t regret my time there. A lot of learning there. But still deep within me, I wanted to do beyond just the relationship with the market and stuff like that. In fact, as a matter of fact, in Ghana, probably, if you talk about a workforce, maybe 60, 70 % of the workforce are into banking. So it’s a common job.
⁓ If you don’t have the passion for it, it’s very hard to be as successful as you want to be. ⁓ But then again, I wanted to go beyond that. I did not see myself being in a band for a very long time. It was just something temporarily to learn a few things here and there. So deep within me, I’d always wanted to do something much more analytical because, again, I did actuarial science, but there was a transition period, and stuff like that. So how I got into the US was OK.
I think I want to be like a data scientist, you know, doing that cool stuff. Because even in the bank, ⁓ I was actually doing research as well. Cause I remember I was tasked, was a team lead for student banking. So I was stuck with coming up with some strategies to be able to make sure we have like a huge market share for the students on campus. And I did amazing with that work. So I always wanted to kind of do that kind of combination of research and also with the data analysis. I actually came here to study statistics. And then after one year,
I’m like, this is so boring. I’ll be honest with you. Like we go to class, some of the things we learn is so abstract. I’m not able to wrap my head around it. So to be frank with you, I did not want to come do research. I actually wanted to combine my stats with economics. So I remember I went into the economics department. I’m like, hey, I’m actually here. I want to combine economics and stats because again, I’m always looking to kind of get ahead and get new skills.
So when I went, ⁓ I was told that the economics department by the economics chair, that the master’s in economics program, they are not accepting students. So as I came out of the office, said, ⁓ I’m like, ⁓ my first love. Why did I even miss that? So I walked straight into the office. I forgot the assistant’s name. ⁓ she’s a very nice person. I think she still works there. ⁓ Yeah, for the MMR program.
Sean Jordan (18:34)
For the MMR program, it’ll be Jaren,
Jaren Reif. Yeah.
Rich (18:37)
Jaren, yep,
Jaren. I’m like, hey, can I speak with the chair, whoever is in charge of the program? He’s like, oh, Ram. Ram is in charge. So I remember I was very fortunate Ram was in the office at that day. So I walked in like, hey, I want to do market research. He asked me why I explained. Or what I just told you is like, yeah, go ahead and apply. I’ll give you admission. So that is how all of these things came together. But honestly speaking, I was very glad economics did not work out because I think I had lost that part of
Well, I think I love research. ⁓ I like, ⁓ marketing right there. I’m like, why did I not even think about this? So that is how I got into this space, you know, just from being a bank and then coming into the US and then transitioning to a combination of statistics and research.
Sean Jordan (19:21)
Yeah, and you mentioned Ram, Dr. Ram Madhapali, who’s the director of our Master Marketing Research Program. And ⁓ he’s a guy who, ⁓ if you impress him quickly enough, he really wants you to be a part of the program. And I’m going to guess you made that kind of impression.
Rich (19:37)
Oh yeah. Oh
yeah. I was, I was actually shocked myself that he said, okay, go and apply. I’ll give you admission. And that night I applied the full amount and I got admission. I’m like, oh, this is interesting. But I’ll be honest. I did not know there was a marketing research program on campus until I came out from the economist professor’s office and I was like, marketing. I’m like, oh, why did I even not even Google or search for it? I’m like, okay, this is what I probably need, not economics. But yeah, Ram is a great guy.
Sean Jordan (20:05)
And you’re pointing to two, and Ram is a great guy, by the way. And you’re pointing to two, though, I think one of the things that is difficult in our industry, a lot of people don’t want to call it marketing research anymore. They want to call it insights research. There’s adjacent fields like data science or user experience, which all have different applications. But we kind of stray away from the term marketing research because people hear the word marketing and they assume that all we’re doing is just serving advertising and sales. And no, we’re serving decision making. We’re helping with.
strategy and tactics and implementation and pricing and all these other things too, not just advertising and sales. And so I think that’s part of why even in what you’re doing now, you have a title, People Analytics, right? Is what you’re doing. And tell me a little bit about People Analytics and what that’s all about.
Rich (20:49)
Yeah.
Yeah, it’s an interesting field. Again, all of these came together because of my association with insight analytics. It used to be market research. For me, to your point, I don’t see marketing research. I see it as a very broad scope with a lot of potential in it. It gave me lot of opportunity, for example, to intern for one year with Centene. So how I got into people analytics was through Centene. I did a project with the HR department and they enjoyed it. And it’s like, ⁓ can you come and work with us full time? I’m like, yep, I would do that.
So simply put, people analytics is just more like a data person within the HR department. But I would say that the role has evolved. Even my personal role, my personal experience has evolved over time. So I don’t no longer work with just HR. I also work with a business. So basically what we are trying to do is how can, because every company, the greatest asset or the most expensive asset are employees. So how can we make sure employees are performing the way they should perform?
basically help them be very much productive. When they are productive, that influences your top line and bottom line, which is your revenue and your profit. So basically all that I do in my day to day is how can I make sure our people are productive as much as they can and help us make more money that we want to make. So I work with salespeople, work with R &D, I work with HR leaders, I work with finance. So I work with all kinds of business leaders just because of the common ground.
the people or the colleagues. So that is just in a nutshell, but it’s a really fascinating field that I did not hear, I never knew about until I was working at Centene and I got to hear about it. I’m like, this is cool. I want to do this. So that is just that in a nutshell.
Sean Jordan (22:35)
And, you know, one of the things I talk about a lot, ⁓ especially with marketing colleagues, is the term marketing itself has so many different meanings. And even internal marketing towards your own employees is a form of marketing. And, you know, trying to have retention, trying to make sure that they’re feeling like they are in line with the company’s values, trying to make sure that they feel a part of the culture. There’s a marketing function that’s guiding that. so…
One of the things I love about being able to talk to folks like yourself that are doing so many of these things that are taking the techniques that we were using for just external customers and applying them in different ways is think about all the benefits that you’re bringing to the companies that you’re working with. you’re at Thermo Fisher Scientific now, you were at Deloitte before, and then you were at Centene. And I mean, those are all pretty big companies. So they need to focus on retaining employees because if they’re turning them over, they’re not only losing
Rich (23:16)
⁓ Yeah. That’s great. Yep.
Sean Jordan (23:27)
all that time and training that they’ve invested in them, but they’re potentially losing knowledge and capital that could be going to competitors as well.
Rich (23:33)
yeah, it’s expensive to lose people, especially the critical people. To your point, so I remember one of the things that we had learned and even on my final thesis or project was doing like a survey, ⁓ which when I went to Centene, by the way, one of my responsibilities was basically reducing automating processes, which is our reporting process. One thing that I had leveraged was just creating a survey to understand how are they using the product? ⁓ Is there any feature?
that they think they would like to see. And even like the format, the output of how they want to see it. And that was a huge ⁓ insight I got. That actually helped with the adoption of the product. And I use this strategy all the time. To date, I still use that strategy. I do focus groups with some of the projects I do. I do surveys. ⁓ I do one-on-one interviews. So it’s like to your point, market research is too broad. There’s a lot of elements in it that you can apply to anything, which I do. By the way, still do current projects. I still do. ⁓
So, but yeah, it is something that I would always encourage people to look into and see how they can develop apps for themselves with it.
Sean Jordan (24:40)
warms my heart to hear that you’re still doing qualitative research, by the way.
Rich (24:41)
⁓ I do. I do.
And that’s one thing my manager loves because every project that I do, I try to combine because again, there’s always a difference between what the system collects versus what the people on the food actually would say. So a typical example is I’m working on a commercial project trying to understand ⁓ what are the success factors of a top-performing sales rep or sales individual.
Yes, the system has its own data, right? You can collect all data from the sales perspective, but what are the managers saying? What are the people on the ground actually also saying? Then you combine. I remember this term you use a lot. who comes to mind? Ayana. You remember Ayana? I remember Ayana was shouting, triangulate. So just putting these two different data points together, it creates a much more holistic insight. And most of the time, you’ll be surprised what people are actually saying versus what the data is saying.
For me, that is true insight and I use it all the time. I use that technique all the time.
Sean Jordan (25:42)
And I’m often doing business to business or consumer facing research. And one of the things that I’ve always been surprised about in the 17 years or 18 years that I’ve done this is we will think that people are going to say one thing based on their behavior, based on the patterns that we see in the data. And then we go and talk to them and tell us a completely different story. often we have that saying that we use a lot of times, what people say, what people do, what people say they do are three entirely different things.
You see it in the data all the time and it’s, can’t rely on just one. You have to look at all three and kind of triangulate them together. And I think that’s something that we in qualitative research, we understand a little bit more intuitively because we see it all the time. But even in quantitative research, you get these conflicting data sets and you have to try to make sense of why you’re seeing two different stories. And a lot of times it is because of how the data were reported, where they observational and behavioral, or where they reported by the actual participants and
That can change the story quite a bit.
Rich (26:43)
I know I agree 100 % I agree on that 100 % totally. But yeah.
Sean Jordan (26:49)
what are some of the main ways in which you think about how organizations can serve their customers and stakeholders with the data tools that you have?
Rich (26:57)
That’s a good question. Yeah. So let’s give a typical example. ⁓ We have something we call EIS survey, basically an employee survey, just trying to understand the sentiments with our colleagues. One interesting thing is, and I’m always a big fan of trying to understand what you’re saying versus what you’re actually doing. So I’ll give a typical example. So right now, one of my focus areas is on turnover. And one of my clients, when you look at his ⁓ company, ⁓
or her group’s ⁓ metrics, they are all good. Like she’s promoting faster, she’s paying good, a lot of remote people. Like all those good metrics, she is basically seeing it in her business. But one thing that is also not reflecting is on the survey, there are different sentiments around her business. Like people want to leave, ⁓ people are saying their well-being is kind of not at best.
People are saying their manager is not supportive enough. People are saying they are not believing in ⁓ their business as they were before. So when you think about those two data points, you have to understand, where can I focus on? Again, to your point, what people are saying, what they are doing, what they intend to do are always different. You have to understand these data points because the truth is, if you rely on one side of the data, you’ll be fine. Like, ⁓ this is what is going on. I think the people are happy. But when you listen to the other side, it’s like, OK, that is
something that is totally true. So one of the recommendations from the work that I did is probably let’s some focus groups. Let’s do one especially with those sites that are very critical to the business. And by so doing, there are a lot of things that we uncovered that the data did not show. And that explains why certain critical positions in that site, people are living at a higher pace than expected. when I think when I, to answer your question, it’s always about trying to understand
not just one point of the data, because it will not tell you the truth. It will tell you one part of the story. But when you dig deeper, you tend to find out underlying things that you never thought you could uncover. And you have to take action. I’m always on my client. If we find something, let’s take action. If you want to improve employee experience, we have to take action. Like, for example, if people are saying that
they are less reluctant to refer people. Let’s understand the reason behind this and let’s try and then solve for that issue. So I don’t know if that answers your question.
Sean Jordan (29:26)
Yeah, totally. a lot of times when we’re thinking about data, what we’re really thinking about is how do we decide what we want to do? We need the data in support of some kind of decision that we’re trying to make. ⁓ If we just collect data for data’s sake, then it’s nice to know, but it’s not need to know. But if we’re collecting it for the sake of we’re trying to decide how to engage employees better, we’re trying to decide how to retain employees better, to get them to refer better people into our organization because birds of a feather, we want to make sure we get
people that are like them, if we already have them. ⁓ Those are decisions that you have to make. And those often are big decisions because they require a lot of strategic focus. So data is never just something that we just have to go and consult when we have a question. Rarely it is. Most of the time what it is is something that we’ve structured to help us to make that decision that we need to make. And if we happen to have the right data, great. But most of the time we have to go out and get it.
Rich (30:20)
No, I agree. I think this is
how and why people ⁓ analytics came into being. Because your point, yes, companies were collecting data on their employees, but how were they using it? Because every day you have to make decisions based on people. And if you don’t understand the underlying reasons and factors or behaviors, how do even then make a decision? So in MySpace, that is one of the things that we came to solve for. OK, you have all this data.
Let’s see what are some of the things that are happening in your business. How can we improve employee experience? How can we make them more productive? How can we basically improve their work? And how can we talk to managers like, hey, make sure you are lining closely with your direct reports, giving them the best support, giving them the best feedback in everything that they do. Again, the ultimate goal is we want to make sure they perform the best they So I agree with your point.
Having data without basically ⁓ utilizing it is just waste of time, waste of space, waste of money. But having data and basically trying to understand how can we use this to basically improve our business, I think that is what most companies are ⁓ after nowadays.
Sean Jordan (31:28)
Definitely, and you’ve definitely worked with some companies that they have a lot of resources, so they have to make sure that they’re, you don’t want to boil the ocean. You don’t want to go out and try to get every single thing you can do. You want to make sure you’re using those resources properly so you can keep that momentum going strongly. Well, let me ask you about gaps in data now, because I know you’ve probably seen them. I see them all the time. What are some gaps in data that require you to seek out more information, and where do you go to find it? Are you able to find it through Qual, or do you have to go out and?
Rich (31:37)
No.
Sean Jordan (31:58)
invent new studies or what are you able to do?
Rich (32:01)
Yeah, that’s a good question with the gaps in data. ⁓ For the space that I’m in, context is always important. So like I said, I’m fortunate to work in companies. They have very quality data. They have strong infrastructure that stores data. But sometimes you cannot just go to a client and be like, hey, I see turnover is like 23%, which is higher than the typical average company ⁓ metric. What is going on?
So it’s always about trying to understand the context. I’ll give an example. So when I joined Tomof Fisher, ⁓ I was all about recommendations, recommendations, recommendations. So if I see a little thing that is off, I’m like, hey, did you realize, by the way, your average time to fill this role has gone up by, let’s say, X percent? I think you should do something about it. And what I did not know behind the scenes, which is a gap in the data that I did not have any perspective to, is context. So for example,
in the US or not even the US, in some part of the world, I believe in EMEA, if somebody wants to his or her job, the person has like 30 days ⁓ notice and then afterwards, it’s kind of like a longer time period to quit a job. Unlike the US, two to three weeks, you’re gone. And so put all that into perspective and the business is global. Definitely that is what you would see in the data, right? So for me, as kind of an analyst person,
That was a gap for me that conted behind it. So to your question, how do I fill in the gap is go to the right people and ask the right questions. Try to understand the numbers. So now when I go to a conversation, the question I ask is, I found this, does this make sense? And if they have anything to say, they fill me in what I’m missing. But sometimes too, the gaps are real. A typical example is ⁓ sometimes you might have how the data was entered was wrong. And sometimes you know, you know, personally,
Like for example, there’s a difference between, let me just use like manager in HR and HR manager. One is an individual contributor. One is like a people leader. Now with these two people, if you are doing an analysis on them, you have to understand that, this person is an individual contributor. you treat them, assuming whatever analysis you’re doing, you treat them differently from the people leader. ⁓ How do I solve for the gap? It’s something that I should know based on the years of experience I’ve been working. So it’s two ways. ⁓ I’m not always the steward of the data.
or have the good understanding or context behind the data so I seek out. Where I have a good understanding, I try to fill in the gap as much as I can.
Sean Jordan (34:33)
And you’re mentioning experience here. And this is one of the reasons why I’m not terrified of AI the way some of my colleagues are, because let me give you an example. So I do qual and quant. So quantitative has numbers for those that are listening. And qualitative is about listening to other people. So quantitative, we often have data sets where we’re looking at mean scores, which are averages. And ⁓ I had two data sets that were longitudinal study. And it looked like numbers had changed a lot.
between the two data sets when one of my assistants brought the initial analysis to me. And what they had failed to realize was that there was an error in the coding in one of the data sets that had caused the scale to basically get off by one. ⁓ So it looked like the numbers had changed and they hadn’t. And it was only because I remembered the previous study that I knew that. Sometimes that experience can really save you from making some big mistakes because ultimately the data had not changed.
Rich (35:01)
Mm.
Sean Jordan (35:29)
because of the coding error, looked like they had changed a lot. And actually the story was going to be quite positive for a client that really needed to be told that they needed to work a little bit harder. So when we see these things, a lot of times we have to investigate. We have to ask questions. And I think that’s one of the things about ⁓ any kind of data science or people analytics or any other thing where we’re looking at large troves of data where we have to be really careful is that our experience makes us curious. It makes us ask questions because we’ve seen things go wrong so many times.
Rich (35:58)
It is…
It is true.
Sean Jordan (35:59)
We can’t
just trust the numbers. We have to look at them. Have you had any experiences like that?
Rich (36:02)
yes.
all the time, all the time. So in the position that I am, I also work with ⁓ analysts. Basically, they help me with some analysis here and there. And sometimes when they bring me ⁓ the analysis, it doesn’t pass the sniff test. Literally, it means I look at the numbers and I’m like, I don’t think this is supposed to be so. ⁓ Let me try and do an investigation. And most recent one was one of ⁓ the work I had given to them. They brought it.
And then because I have done that project over and over again, so I already have built a structure. I’ve built a template. So just go replicate the template, except it’s a different group. Right. And so when you bring it to me and I look at the numbers, I’m like, okay, I don’t think this is supposed to be so like, for example, you’re telling ⁓ me, 23 % of colleagues at the risk of retirement for this specific band. I’m like, no, I have done this over and over again. At least it should probably be maybe 19 or 23.
Truly, sometimes when you have that doubt in the data, when you investigate, you realize that, yep, I was right. ⁓ So that experience, yes, it happens all the time where you know gut feeling and from experience doing it over and over again, you know something is wrong. So when you investigate, you realize that, you were right.
Sean Jordan (37:20)
we so many times missing data, it’ll be coded ⁓ as like the top point of a scale. like it’s a 10 weight scale, it’ll be coded as an 11 just by the software we’re using. And if we forget to tell it to take that out when we’re doing our analysis, all of our mean scores will be inflated. I’ve seen it go the other way too, where, you know, it’s coded as a zero and it makes all the scores lower. mean, you know this stuff because you do it. And that’s where I, again, like software never can quite get it right. You know, it always has these conventions that do it wrong. And so,
Rich (37:26)
⁓
⁓ goodness.
No.
Sean Jordan (37:49)
I think that ability to stop and say, wait a minute, does this make any sense? if it does make sense, do we have any other evidence for it? It’s really key to what we do. And ⁓ I know you’re having to think about that a lot with the vast troves of data that you’re looking at. But even when you’re comparing two different sources of data, sometimes the assumptions that went into how that data was collected might make things really different, even if they seem to be similar on the surface.
Rich (38:16)
No, that is true. ⁓ I agree with that. I’ll give an example again on this note. So one of my studies, I interviewed both hiring managers and also the ⁓ recruiters. Basically, the questions are the same, but you would definitely notice two different point of view. It’s understandable because these are two different people, two different needs, two different way of looking at things.
And then you bring in the data and realize, okay, now who is telling the truth? mean, not the truth for lack of a better, what is the data also saying? And then you tend to see, okay, this is much more in alignment to what X person said versus, because again, when you talk to people, I always have the feeling sometimes, even just the time of the day, the person’s mood could basically switch things off. Like they probably would be saying certain things because they are not happy. They woke up and you know, something happened and all this kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, you want to get into a
a concrete conclusion. So how do you do that? Of course, there’s always other different data sources you can rely on to get to this point. again, back to that kind of experience really matter when it comes to this space. And of course, it takes time to build experience because you have to do things over and over at a point where you take something like, okay, this is right, this is wrong. Let me investigate to see if even with my intuition, my gut feeling is right. So it’s at that point we get your, your career, you can have a feeling, you can have the gut feeling that something is amiss.
And again, if something is amiss, sometimes even you yourself could be a gap, like probably also not in the right state of mind, but you have to investigate to make sure what you were assuming or hypothesizing was right or wrong.
Sean Jordan (39:56)
Well said, well said. I agree 100%. Well, let me ask you a little bit about the international students and international workers that you reach out to because you have done an amazing job on LinkedIn and through other forums that you’re on on just talking about the difficulty of our immigration system here in the US and how people can find resources and encouragement when they need them because you went through the process, you made it through. I’m so proud of you for doing that. ⁓
Rich (40:09)
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Sean Jordan (40:24)
I’m also proud of you that you’re sharing your knowledge because that’s my values as well. That’s exactly what I would do. And I often tell international students, you know, if you’re having a hard time here, go to Canada. It’s actually a little easier to get in there. It’s merit days. You might be happier. Some of the folks I’ve known that have gone up there are happier. ⁓ what are some of the ⁓ reasons that you’re doing this and why and how are you helping people out?
Rich (40:36)
Hahaha!
Yeah, people don’t know you helped me through my process by giving me a very nice recommendation. So again, thank you. Thank you on that. ⁓ No, so again, going through the process, you kind of learn a lot. And I tend to have a feeling most international students still do not have the right information. Again, when I came, there was a lot of misinformation out there, which I bought into it. So literally what I had done, I could have done it earlier. But again, I’m glad all those were learning processes.
Sean Jordan (40:54)
That was my pleasure. That was my pleasure.
Rich (41:18)
But now you don’t have that kind of time to be working with misinformation because it will lead you nowhere and you find yourself in a place that you don’t want to put yourself in. So for me, it’s about, have gone through this process. I missed out number of years because of this. I don’t want somebody else to also go through this process. So I recall when I started my process, I started talking about it. I did not wait to get approved. I didn’t know where to make sure I have my green card. I started talking about it because it’s more like.
I, the light has been shown to me. I’m like, ⁓ this is so simple. This is so easy. And when people tell you it’s like, it’s too complicated, it’s too hard. And so that is just a passion. I just don’t want people to suffer, to go out of status, to find themselves in a situation that they don’t have any option. So that is why I keep preaching to them. How do I help? I think my post is enough. ⁓ Anytime I post, get messages.
Like hey, this is so helpful. ⁓ This is more you were talking to me and stuff like that That is the joy I find that at least even one person just come back like ⁓ thank you for sharing this This is what I’ve been thinking about. This is what I was looking for ⁓ Typically, talked I also talked to them one-on-one because some of them needs more like more encouragement because anytime I talk to them You can see the frustration. I’ll be honest some of them are even depressed
And for me, it gets to me is like, why did you even get to this point? Again, I understand because I’ve been in that situation ⁓ where you think. So one thing that a lot of people we come is when we move outside and come in, we have a very different perception in the US. Like we think things are rosy. Well, that is what it’s to us. You can define a job, you’ll be paid six figures. You know, everything is rosy. And then you come in, things are not the way it is. And then frustration sets in. Depression sets in. Anger sets in. So.
It’s just me going through that process. Remember I was working in a bank? I was making good money. And then I come to SIUE, I’m like, my goodness, why did I do that? ⁓ And I have family back home and I have also bigger family that I need to take care of. So that kind of, you know, quick jump without nobody informing me about the reality in the US was like, wow, interesting. But once you come here, you can go back. You have to figure out a way to survive and succeed. And so for me going through that process is just a joy to share with people.
And I’m always happy to do it any point, any time, any day.
Sean Jordan (43:44)
That’s fantastic. And, you know, I say all the time, like you had a class ahead, I think it was about half international students. ⁓ Many of the classes I have don’t have as many anymore because we’re having a harder time recruiting them for a number of reasons. But ⁓ I always feel like our students are worse off if we don’t have international students in the classroom. They lose the perspective. They lose that new thinking.
Rich (43:55)
Yeah.
Sean Jordan (44:07)
And a lot of times international students are coming here and they’re super accomplished. Like there are people that have really done something and they’re competing with these American students who maybe have never been out of college. And it’s just so different. So I always feel enlightened by the discussions that we have ⁓ anytime I’m talking with someone from another country, because I learned so much. And for the field of marketing, for the field of HR, for any of these other fields,
Rich (44:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sean Jordan (44:32)
Having people that come from other places is not a liability. It’s actually a benefit because they may know things that you never thought about. They may have heard or learned things that are really outside the box from your kind of thinking and they can make you better. And also they just might see problems that other people don’t see and they might be able to help fix them. And so I think it benefits us so much to have international community. And that’s part of the reason why I’m so happy to write letters for folks like yourself, because I want you here. I want you to be a part of our culture.
Rich (44:36)
No.
Thank you. Thank
you. I know. And I know that you always say you always say that about me. And again, I really appreciate. But your point, international students come with different perspective. They’ve seen different things. I would tell you it is hard, especially in Africa, to survive. So if somebody comes here, the person has survived in Africa. You have to understand the person is very, very resilient ⁓ in life. Like it would take some it takes a lot of things to get to the person. But even regardless of that, so much different perspective.
I’ll give an example. I was working on a project and this is an HR person who had been with the company, like Susan, let me put it out, a very Susan person. And I was just saying, oh, in Japan, have like, you know, like when you’re 60, you have to retire. I think they moved it to like 63 or 65 years. She literally had no idea. How did I know about it? Yeah, I learned about Japan when I was back in Ghana. I was like, oh, I did not know. And there was an issue that we’re trying to solve for. And the issue was just that kind of.
Knowledge Gab I just provided her that, oh, now I have to go talk to this person in Japan to make sure how we can figure this out. I’m like, yep. So we come with a lot of different perspectives, different ideas. that is why I also want international students to be a part of this community. Because we bring much more than our skill sets. We bring much more than our experience. And every international student, super nice, very kind, very helpful, willing to do anything to make sure you are doing OK.
I think we need them and every country needs an international community to make it thrive and get better.
Sean Jordan (46:36)
100 % agree. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Well, it has been a pleasure, my friend. ⁓ I am always happy to have you back on if you ever have anything you want to talk about. what I want to ask you today is if you have anything you’d like to plug. Because we’re marketers. We always plug something. I always plug something in my solo episodes. What would you like to plug today?
Rich (46:54)
No, maybe this again. You know, my focus has always been with international students. Again, words of encouragement. ⁓ You know, if you are able to make it out there back in home and you are here, I think you can make it. But I would encourage them to seek help if they need because the most recent things I’ve been hearing and I’ve been receiving through messages is not good, ⁓ especially being depressed. And there are always a lot of resources. There are always good people out there willing to help. So they should seek out help if they need to.
So that is just, know it’s not on marketing, but it’s just my passion with these folks that I want to make sure they are well taken care of and they are also taking care of themselves.
Sean Jordan (47:32)
And you and I both live in Illinois. Illinois is very friendly to people that are immigrating. There are different states that are better and worse. So I’d say if you come into the US, come to Illinois, come to SIUE, right? Yeah, we’d love to have you. Well, thank you. We’ll put all of your bio and of course how to contact you in the show notes for anyone that would like to. And certainly if you are, particularly, I know we have some international students that listen to this show and if you are in need of help,
Rich (47:42)
Come to St. Louis area. don’t know. SI is a good school. It’s… Yeah, it’s a good school.
Sean Jordan (48:00)
Richmond’s guy to help you out and we’ve been through it. Well, Richmond, thank you so much for being on the Marketing Gateway. It’s been a pleasure to have you and it’s always great to learn from you.
Rich (48:01)
I appreciate it.
No, thank you, Mr. Jordan. Always a pleasure. Thank you.
Sean Jordan (48:18)
Wow, I just love doing these interviews so much because I always feel like I learn so much and I walk away with my head just full of ideas. I’ll tell you, Richmond and I stayed on and talked a little bit after this interview and he’s got a startup that he’s working on as well. So I’m gonna have to have him come back on and talk about that at some point because he is constantly thinking about how to apply his knowledge and his skills to make the world a better place. And that’s part of what his startup is gonna involve. So I’ll give you that little teaser until we can have him back on. But I wanna say.
Thank you, Richmond, for being on. We appreciate you. We are so glad to have you be a part of our marketing mentor community. And guess what? We are always looking for more folks that can be a part of our community by being on this show. So if you know of anybody that you would like to refer to be a guest, or if you yourself would like to be a guest, please send them our way. can go to themarketinggateway.com, and there’s a sign-up form there. Love to have you. And I would love to interview you, just like I was able to with Richmond here.
Thank you so much for listening. I hope you’ve enjoyed the show. I’m Sean in St. Louis. This has been the Marketing Gateway, and we’ll see you next time.
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