Here is part 2 of my interview with Vu!
How do you find time for you passion projects? What is the best way to look for advice? How different is marketing in real life versus the classroom? Today we are continuing our chat with Vu Violet Do!
CONTACT INFORMATION:
Vu Violet Do
https://www.linkedin.com/in/vudosgvn
The Marketing Gateway is a weekly podcast hosted by Sean in St. Louis (Sean J. Jordan, President of The Research & Planning Group, Inc.) and featuring guests from the St. Louis area and beyond.
Every week, Sean shares insights about the world of marketing and speaks to people who are working in various marketing roles – creative agencies, brand managers, MarCom professionals, PR pros, business owners, academics, entrepreneurs, researchers and more!
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TRANSCRIPT:
Sean In St. Louis (00:05)
Welcome back to the Marketing Gateway. I’m Sean in St. Louis, and this is part two of an interview with my friend Vu Do, who is a ⁓ marketer extraordinaire who most recently has worked for UCare and who is getting ready to launch her own business here in St. Louis. But you know, when I am in the classroom, ⁓ I always tell my students that we should be excited to have international students ⁓ as part of our class because they often bring
this experience and knowledge and perspective that goes well beyond what people that have just grown up here in the Midwest have experienced. And sometimes they just say and do the smartest thing. You’re always glad to have them part of your team or part of your project because they just make you better. And knowing Vu over the years has made me better because she has a person of passion and energy and excitement. I don’t know where she finds all the time to do the things that she does. And every time I talk to her, she’s got something new going on, but
That’s part of why she’s so good at being a marketer, being a researcher, being someone who is applying knowledge to making businesses better. And so we’re going to talk about that today in the second part of this interview and how she finds all the energy and time to do those things and what she’s passionate about. Can’t wait for you to find out. So here we go.
Sean In St. Louis (01:24)
Wow, well, you’re one of the hardest working people I’ve ever met and… ⁓
One of the things that you’ve always done incredibly well that’s just impressed me so much is how you juggle all these extracurricular projects alongside all that full-time work you were just talking about. So I remember you were involved with Creative Morning St. Louis. You had me come and speak one time. ⁓ You also launched a not-for-profit organization to supply books and school materials to children back in Vietnam, which I know we gave you a bunch of books for that. And you’ve also been really involved in fitness, and you’re absolutely
Vu Violet Do (01:39)
Just… Yeah.
Sean In St. Louis (01:59)
incredible with growing plants as we can see in the background. How do you keep all these things going in your life at once?
Vu Violet Do (02:07)
Yeah, Sean, ⁓ people ask me that question quite often. And by the way, for the record, thank you for the books that you sent to Vietnam. They made it to Vietnam years ago, and the library has been going on and on. It was actually under the management of a new ⁓ organization. Let’s put it that way in Vietnam, but it’s still going well. So I can say that the project that I worked on and I received
help from you and other people. It was the fruit that kept giving. It may not give us here in the United States a benefit, but you know that when you go to bed, some kids in Vietnam got to access the really great English book and had a great time learning. So I want to highlight that. But come back to your question. People keep asking me this and ⁓
Sean In St. Louis (02:58)
It makes me happy to hear. Really.
Vu Violet Do (03:05)
Actually, I have something really great to share. This past weekend, I was able to organize an event that helped working professionals, who I call it working professionals like us, to enjoy a wellness retreat where they can balance their work life, where they can let go of the busy and tiring moments in life to go onto an offsite area that I had for them and enjoy a two days, one night wellness program.
retreat programs. This is a question that we discussed at that retreat. ⁓ Everybody was so busy. How do we even have time to do A to B to C? And I think I share my opinion and the group agree that people have the same experiences. We have to make time for what we value. ⁓ We never have enough time for everything that we do. And that is true for me.
I’m sure that it’s true for you, it’s true for so many other working professionals out there. And to be honest, I think that I am lucky to be able to do what I do because number one, I have a relatively more flexible life than, I think you are incredibly busy because you just will manage a company. You also have so many creative projects when on the side.
You have a family on top of that. You have two kids. I don’t have kids. So I don’t really know how you took care of that. And you also do take one dose on. So we’re similar in that way that we have so many passions and projects that we want to pursue in life. And the question for us is how do we find time? And I think the right answer is you don’t find it. You make it. Like you have to be active.
and make the time for what you want to do. And I think when we have the mindset of rather let the activities that we want to do lead the way and put that leader position back to us that we are the one who gonna make the time to do A, to do B, and to do C, then we have a little bit more control.
And I think we will be able to achieve more of what we want to do as well. So for me, I think that like for my professional career, I wore so many hats. I was a saleswoman for Macromill. I was an analyst for you, for you care when I worked with them for the University of Missouri. ⁓ I was a marketer at heart. I was a
leader in certain kind of like project and environment like macromill and stuff when I was in. So I wore so many hats but over time I realized one important skill that helped me did all of those work is project management and time management. And I think when we talk about project manage and time management it go back to the idea that we make the time for what we do.
because we’re going to define the goal. What do we want to achieve at the end of our project? And then go from that goal we want to achieve. We went back to the steps that we need to go through to create that product or to achieve that goal and assign the time needed for each step along the way and then mark it on the calendar. Like right now at this point in my life,
I cannot do go anywhere without my calendar because I got very nervous because I don’t I don’t really know what’s going on next week because I had tons of things and I need my calendar to know that I am ready a lot of my time for that. It’s also a little bit funny when some of my friends were being mad at me and they said like you’re so high maintenance. I’m asking you go out to have a tea or coffee with me and you’re like look at my calendar because I am packed.
like the next two weeks and then and I have to answer them like yes that’s exactly what I need to do to show you that I respect your time and I respect the time of the people who want to spend to do something professionally or personally with me but I have to make the time I have to mark it on the calendar so that I can show up on time and and I showing up with the fact that I am wholeheartedly into that activity with that person
So make time and then remember to mark it on the calendar. I think it’s very important that help us to just do the fact that we could check out so many things like that.
Sean In St. Louis (08:03)
Well, and
we learned a tough lesson over the summer about checking calendars, right? When we, ⁓ we got together being my wife and you and your husband had dinner and we didn’t check the calendar of what was going on on the street that we were on. And that was the night of the naked bike ride. So we got quite a show while we were eating. Well, because you are just one of those real entrepreneurial spirits, that’s one of the reasons I wanted to have you on marketing gateway because we’re.
Vu Violet Do (08:11)
No.
That was so funny.
Sean In St. Louis (08:32)
We’re really trying to talk to people that are in St. Louis that are doing marketing in all kinds of different ways. And you have this just incredible ⁓ ability to think about how to build things that go beyond just what you do in your day to day. And one of the things that you and I have talked a lot about this year is you’re building this health and wellness business that you were talking about while you’re keeping your marketing and analyst career going. one thing.
I really appreciate about your process is that you go and you seek out advice from other people. So you come to me and you’ve come to some other people that you know and said, here, here’s my business plan. Tell me what’s wrong with it. Tell me how I can fix it, how I can make it better. And it impresses me that you’re willing to, you know, it’s hard. Like a lot of times people have a business idea. They just want to go with it. It’s hard to get feedback because you don’t want someone to tell you, oh, this is a bad idea, but
You’re not afraid to be told that it’s a bad idea. In fact, you take that challenge and then you build it into something better. So what I wanted to know is, what are some of the lessons you’ve learned from going through that process as you’re working on this business plan to build this health and wellness business, getting advice from people, talking to potential clients? What are some of the things that you’ve taken away from that?
Vu Violet Do (09:42)
Yeah, because you mentioned advice, I think I’m going to talk about that right away. The one big and very important lesson that I learned through not only this specific process to build my health and wellness business, but also other projects, was number one, seek advice from the right people. I think that was very important. And for example, I retail for you
for your advice because I know you would have really good advice for me because you are a business owner yourself, you are a marketer, you are a consultant for so many organizations, big and small and in variety of industry. So I know for one fact that when I asked my question, I know that it would be in your expertise. You would have really good advice to share.
And I learned that lesson a hard way because I used to ask advice from random people and only gave me to the point that I feeling like I was lost. I’m not so sure what they are trying to help me or what was the goal. And the reason for that was I think because if we just ask for advice from random people with our goal, we actually waste our time as an entrepreneur.
⁓ I think everybody were generally pretty smart and knowledgeable about many things. I am lucky to have many smart and well-rounded friends with great experience. But I learned it the hard way after projects that I worked with them was if I came to them with a vague questions for advice, they’re gonna give me the answer that I did not want to hear.
And the reason the answer that I did not want to hear was because things that I already researched very carefully on myself that even better than what they told me at the moment. And second, I actually wasted my time by not focus my question of advice on the area where they were an expert. ⁓ So that was one of the biggest.
thing that I learned during this process. Number two, think, ⁓ and then you, you meant, it’s funny that you mentioned like, like to many things. ⁓ I listened to how I built this my garage and the podcast quite a lot. I really love the entrepreneurship ⁓ spirit, which was, I might identify myself as an entrepreneur with all the projects that you just listed. So I learned a great deal from other people and other story for sure. And I realized
One big thing that I do on the entrepreneurship journey was similar to the fact that I went to advise from people with the right expertise for my problem. I have great expertise in market research. I need to put it to use. So that was one of another lesson that I learned. I think I have a relatively ⁓ smooth sell.
up to this point for the new business because I did spend time to do my own research. For example, my business is a health and wellness business. I have mainly two services only. One is online personal training for and I would ⁓ have the target audience being white collar working professionals like us. The reason is I understand this audience very well. So I want to serve them.
And there’s also other reasons to follow. The second service is I would organize wellness retreat for working professionals to help them to take time out of their busy life and then gather with a group of people maybe like-minded, but mainly for the program where the host is going to provide them some time to help them learn new knowledge about how to take care of themselves, how to take care of their health.
into exercise and meditation and nutrition, healthy cooking, those kind of things. So I had two main service and I actually spent two years doing my own research. In the last two years before I started to really like launch this business, I talked to people in a variety of scale. did ⁓ kind of informal qualitative research where I just have
conducting some talk with my friends and the people that I think fitting the background and ask them about what do you think of service like that? Or I did not even describe my product or service, but I just asked them generic ideas about how some service like that gonna help them and how it could be differentiated to help them and why they have those needs. So I would ask people,
with a profile similar to my target audience, I would ask about their problems of finding solutions to help them get into fitness and exercise. I tried to understand the root cause of what caused them not ever try out those solutions. And I learned the root cause through talking with a variety of samples.
so that it’s similar to we do qualitative in-depth interviews so that we can hypothesize the generic theme, I would talk to, I’m pretty not sure that I talked to over 25 samples on both services. ⁓ I would talk to similar target audience that I have, which is white collar working professionals and immigrants like me on.
⁓ what prevents them to go to the gym or doing exercise to taking care of their health. And I learned that they have commitments such they have a very busy life, they have kids that they have to take care of, they have a very busy job. So they just don’t have the ability to go to the gym because they never have time. ⁓ So my solution for that was like, I’m going to create some online personal training for you. So that way you can do it yourself at the time.
when you can find rather than moving, know, like driving into a gym or meeting somebody. And that was like, I thought about a problem when I talked to them and then I designed the solutions. And after that, ⁓ I will need to test out my solutions in the future. But the point of those that what I just share is I did initial research in a qualitative, informal, but qualitative settings.
talking to a variety of people. ⁓ In my case, I talked to over 25 people about ⁓ personal fitness training. And I also talked to roughly like 30 or more about Wellness Retreat. And I even went beyond. In the last two years before I launched this service, I organized two sample retreats myself. But I organized the program and I invited the people that I had in mind.
who may benefit from that to experience my program? And I asked them at the end what went good for them, what was good, what was bad, and would they be willing to spend money to do something like that with me in the future? And the answer was yes. And I have two test sample. It’s kind of like two focus group where people said, your product is amazing, I will spend money and I will spend this amount of money to doing that. If you really launch it and I’m like, okay, here I am, I have two focus group that only say yes.
I’m going to just launch it. I’m going to test it. So those are like the question that the basic, the biggest lesson that I learned.
Sean In St. Louis (17:44)
See, and those are the insights that you can only get from talking to people in the way that you were, where you’re very deliberate, you pick the right people who can give you the right kinds of feedback. But like the insight that you just shared about, there are some people that they’re so busy that they might need you to do some online training programs for you, for them. That’s not something that you would just arrive at on your own, because you would normally assume, they’re going to use an app for that, or they’re going to get a Peloton or whatever. ⁓ You wouldn’t think, ⁓ I…
is as their personal trainer need to create specific content for them. But then when you hear that, and you hear that lifestyle that they’re living, you hear the barrier to their success is time more than anything, and you’re able to find those creative solutions. That’s the value of being able to do that on the ground research. So I, you know, I know you’re very methodical and careful because, you I’m one of the people to help train you to be that way. But
Vu Violet Do (18:35)
you
Sean In St. Louis (18:38)
I think I tell entrepreneurs all the time, like you don’t need to hire a researcher like myself to do this kind of work. Like you can go and talk to people and you will get just from listening, you will get so many ideas and things that you can then hone in on and try to figure out a path to profitability for. But I applaud you for taking the time to listen because it is really going to benefit you. And I have a feeling.
We’ll probably have you back on in the future, you know, to talk about the successful health and wellness and fitness business that you have built and lessons that you learned along the way. So looking forward to that. Well, just in the interest of time, I’m going to ask a few questions quickly because we’ve got, covered so much ground already, but I wanted to make sure I got to these because one of the things that, you know, just absolutely fascinates me about folks like yourself that have been in all these different roles.
Vu Violet Do (19:12)
Yeah.
Sean In St. Louis (19:28)
is you have these perspectives that are very different from many other people that have just been in one kind of job the whole time. So you have worked on the academic side, you’ve been on the agency side, you’ve been on the corporate side, now you’re in the entrepreneurial side. So as you’re thinking about all these different roles and all the lessons you’ve learned, what’s really stuck with you about how the practice of marketing, so when you’re doing it, you know, actually practically, how that differs from the ideals of it, the things that we talk about in the classroom.
Vu Violet Do (19:57)
think they’re so different. I think as a student when I went to school and learned about marketing, I still remember one of the very first course that I had in the United States, right? At SIUE, before I had the course with you was the general marketing management. And I remember the very first four, we worked really hard on the four piece, like price promotion place. And then at the same time, I realized after that, that
When I conducted my own projects, I could see how different it was from the textbook. Because the textbook is going to say, yes, when you go out and then you create a new product and you launch it into the world, you want the best combination of features in your products. And then you’re going to find a really good place and then a really good promotion with the right pricing. You can just test.
and then you’re have that sweet spot, point spot where everything gonna come together and you are able to sell your products. Well, I think when you go out into the real life, you’re gonna see it works different for a big organization versus a very small startup. Like I myself ⁓ have a couple of unsolicited.
advice from people who did not know that I already did research and they would ask me, so why did you start up gonna be different from saying Mayan body and Peloton? You should just do like them. You should just do like them and you would be successful. And then I had to take back, sit back for a moment to observe that comment. And I’m like, I know that you have a marketing background and I know that you know.
the business that I’m launching in that industry and you know that textbook said I have the right product, I should work on the right kind of like promotion and price and things like that, just exactly like those company. But what you did not know is I don’t have the big investment like those company, that’s one. ⁓ Number two, the scale, those are
very big provider of a variety of solutions with different customer segments. And right now, the health and wellness industry, they’re actually quite saturated. There’s so many providers outside and then there’s a, it’s still a blue ocean. There’s a lot of opportunities there, but at the same time, there are so many providers. So if you just blindly think that you’re going to take the 4P model,
from your textbook in marketing and say that I should do the same thing with very established brand in the world to try a product that’s different than what I am providing to my clients. I’m not gonna be successful. I need to twist my product and my price and the way that I promote it to the target audience that I have in mind.
And then at the same time, I also need to find out who are my target audience before I primarily go launch tons of TV ads on the internet without knowing who are my target audience. If I do in the way that Peloton do, I possibly would run a lot of advertising and no conversion, no customer coming in.
to use my service and I’m gonna waste so much of my investment into that process without any clear conversion at all. So it doesn’t work like that. The textbooks say, ⁓ I think my summary would be textbook marketing ideals, what we learned in school are really good starting point to guide us, create a framework where we can follow.
and see the problems and find the solutions ourselves. But we have to be the person who tested out those kind of framework and marketing ideas. Yes, the book said to set the pricing, you are going to test on this market. So and so and so. But honestly, when you have too much competition, it’s not about
price anymore. If you provide a lower price than your competitor, you think that your customer is to go to you, you may be wrong because they will go to you and you’re going to have so many customers in your book. But does that help with your profit? No, because that cheap price is actually eating into you have so much overhead and high cost, you make very little profit margin. So why do you even want to do that? Why don’t you create
a better combination of product and you may place the price a little bit higher, which is different from what the textbook is you, but because you place the price a little bit higher and you match that with your target customer who are people who could afford that kind of pricing. Now you meet the sweet spot between your customer and the price expectation. The price may be higher, but they could afford that and they pay for that.
and they got their service that they want and you are able to make a profit margin as an entrepreneur. It is completely different from textbook. So I think my point was.
Sean In St. Louis (25:41)
Yeah. Well, in,
and, and you mentioned the four P’s and there’s also the seven P’s or the four C’s or the five C’s or the seven T’s or there’s all kinds of other frameworks and they’re, they’re all basically based around the idea of people trying to describe how to do this, but there’s not a perfect way to describe it because all of those different frameworks are for a different context. And when you’re talking about personal service, for example, like the seven T’s framework adds in a few extra or seven P’s, excuse me, adds in a few extra
Vu Violet Do (25:51)
Right.
Sean In St. Louis (26:11)
letters, ⁓ but it still doesn’t solve a lot of the problems that you’re talking about because it gives you a strategic framework, but it doesn’t give you any of the answers. You have to really sit and think through the details. Well, let me ask you again just quickly because I know that ⁓ you have other things to get to today, but what are some of the things that you’re excited about in the world of marketing? Is there anything that you’re really excited about right now?
Vu Violet Do (26:35)
There are many things, but in short, think ⁓ AI as many people are talking about right now, it has its good, it has its bad. I myself think that like, those are really good tools for marketing. For example, as I do marketing for my new entrepreneurship, ⁓ the cost of producing media, good media, so that I can promote my service to people. Usually it was very expensive because videography and video…
Editing costs so much, a too high a professional to do. And AI is the solution that like helped me kind of achieve the quality of some of the media work that I need to use. And it’s also significantly lower the cost for me. So I would put it out there, like take advantage of new technologies like AI is. One. And then second was I think the world of marketing is forever changing. And I am.
Sean In St. Louis (27:33)
Mm-hmm.
Vu Violet Do (27:35)
scared of how fast things changing but at the same time I’m excited that every day when you go out to the world and you see a new trend of how to promote a new product in the different channels for example in the past I used to be a writer I like to write out everything to communicate about ⁓ anything that I do or my product and services and right now if you focus on videos basically it’s the trends like the forever changing
But I learned that like, yeah, let’s pick up some new tools and some new media such as making a video. It’s gonna help your life much better. So those are the things that I feel excited. Yeah.
Sean In St. Louis (28:16)
For sure. And is there anything that frustrates you in the world of marketing right now?
Vu Violet Do (28:20)
⁓ yeah. ⁓ I think it’s the two sides of the knife. Something that you excited, also makes you scared, exactly like you said, I think. I’m going to just continue using, saying about the other side is, ⁓ for example, with AI, I think many people see the benefit of the tools and they come in and they use it. And sometimes they don’t really… ⁓
Sean In St. Louis (28:31)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Vu Violet Do (28:50)
having a ⁓ thorough control enough and they let their AI go wild, right? So for example, I think that some many of my friends told me when they apply for new jobs nowadays, they’re gonna use AI to write their cover letter and resume. It is in marketing because they are marketing themselves to the new employers. And they let AI doing the job and they did not check and they send the whole cover letter.
Sean In St. Louis (29:17)
Mm-hmm.
Vu Violet Do (29:19)
just to the employer, just as AI written. And later they came back and they were like, my God, no, my God, no, I forgot. I still left a command of AI in my cover letter. And I feel really dumb right now. And I’m like, that’s it. Even we use the tool, we need to be mindful and thorough and go through and check the work and fix it because AI is a tool, but it’s not a solution to everything.
So I think what’s frustrating me is tools are there and it’s good, but it also has the back side of it that we need to pay attention to. And the other thing that like made me feel frustrated was sometimes I think at marketing communication, there are so many people are miscommunicated right now. So it’s hard for us to tell the right and the wrong among the saying the current communication.
on public policies or things like that, there’s a lot of miscommunication that made me feel worried as well.
Sean In St. Louis (30:26)
for sure and I think the point you’re making is about tools is absolutely right. mean, in marketing, advertising is a tool. Digital advertising is a tool. Community sponsorships are a tool. AI is a tool. mean, they’re all different tools that we can use, but you have to use them appropriately. And when you use them inappropriately, at best you waste some money and time.
At worst, you can actually create serious problems. And I think AI, because it feels like an easy button, ⁓ for so many people, it can create some serious problems if they’re not really careful about what they’re generating with it. So you make an excellent point there. Well, what advice would you offer to people who are just getting started in their marketing career?
Vu Violet Do (31:07)
I think being hands-on, get your hands dirty is really important to learn. ⁓ Speaking from the fact that across my career, I think that the only thing that always helped me move forward is I had to be hands-on with every tools and every applications of the knowledge piece that I achieved in school to be able to use the tools correctly.
and then create value for the work that I do. And then the kind of like understand the different sides of the knowledge. For example, when I went to the market research courses, right, Sean, at a time when like I took your courses about qualitative research, like we know we were in class and we would be like, yeah, that’s a, I have other students, your student in class with me, they would be like, that sounds amazing. I’m sure that it’s very beneficial.
But I think if they had never done that themselves, they wouldn’t realize that just conducting a field focus group before you do anything, give you so many ideas of how you can design your product, how you can twist your solutions. It’s going to help you form a hypothesis of what is the right way to do. And then it would give you the guide. So you can come in and you can test that. And then you can run a quantitative survey later to test it.
But if you never do that, you wouldn’t know that’s the real benefit of a focus group. So I think like getting your hands dirty, get hands on.
Sean In St. Louis (32:45)
Well, one thing that I ask every guest to do at the end of our interview, and you’ve been so wonderful to talk to, but I wanted to ask you, do you have anything that you’d to plug? Now can plug anything you want, so here’s your chance.
Vu Violet Do (32:57)
Yeah, I think I’m going to try to combine everything from my professional and personal life to tell people that as working professionals, as marketers, we are, we have professional responsibility to the society, to the company, to the organizations that we serve. But don’t forget that we are human and we need time to taking care of ourselves as well.
I’m saying that because I am a marketer and I am also a wellness coach to help people live a healthy and energetic and positive life. And my lesson was I am able to do everything that I wanted to do so far because I am a very healthy person. I work out, I teach exercise, I teach people how to meditate and how to pay attention to their nutrition. And because I am having a
Healthy lifestyle it gave me the energy. I woke up. I feel Energized I have the energy to do what I do I have the energy to care about the things that I Want to do and I also have the energy to care for my loved ones. So my two cents would be Whatever you do trying to balance your work and life Not until you have like a healthy lifestyle and you got to enjoy what life
you’re going to be the best version and you’re going to generate better work for organizations and for your clients and for yourself.
Sean In St. Louis (34:33)
I love it and ⁓ I’ll add on to that plug that if you need advice on how to do that, ⁓ is definitely the person to talk to because she will get you energized and excited and I’m so glad that we were able to have you on the Marketing Gateway. So thanks so much for being on. It’s always a pleasure to talk with you and I’m so looking forward to hearing about how things are going ⁓ in the next year or two as you get this.
entrepreneurial side of your work off the ground and of course all of the awesome things you’re doing in your career as well. So thank you so much.
Vu Violet Do (35:03)
Thank you, Sean.
Sean In St. Louis (35:07)
Well, are you excited yet? I know I am. And I cannot wait to see what Vu does with this business that she’s getting ready to start. by the way, if you want to reach out to Vu, her contact information is in the show notes and I’m sure she’d love to hear from you. I want to thank her for being a part of the marketing gateway, but I also want to say, when I explained to her the purpose of this show to bring together marketers here in the Midwest who are doing
all sorts of different activities that contribute towards marketing function at businesses and organizations around the area. She was excited because she, like myself, loves to be part of a community, loves to hear from other people. And I know that one of the things that we would love to accomplish with this is to not only spotlight the great marketers that are here in the Midwest and more specifically in St. Louis, but also to build a community of marketing mentors who can talk.
talk to each other and learn to rely on each other for advice and ideas. And that’s something that she’s already doing and something that I hope we can continue to build here. So we are looking forward to the weeks to come where we’re to have more of these awesome marketing mentors to share with you. This has been the Marketing Gateway. I am Sean in St. Louis. See you next time.
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